Waco Lies Revisited

"I do not think the United States government is responsible because a bunch of religious fanatics decided to kill themselves…"

"It all goes back to Waco" has become a frequent rejoinder in Libertarian circles and there is much merit to this profound sentiment. To many, the 1993 FBI-Delta Force assault on Mt. Carmel has come to symbolize the malign potential of the lawless state. Further, the February BATF raid and its deadly aftermath graphically articulated the worst fears of those who oppose the lethal convergence of police and military. Yet in a recent National Review On-Line (NRO) essay penned by Libertarian scholars Paul H. Blackman and David Kopel, the historical significance of this tragic event is inexplicably discarded.

Entitled "Waco Lessons for War," the November 6th editorial ostensibly urges Pentagon strategists to taken into account the strident Islamic beliefs which characterize Muslim terror groups. However, in the process of dispensing this advice, the two authors inadvertently rely on some of the more spurious government claims about the Branch Davidian religious sect.

While the discriminating researcher would be hard-pressed to equate a largely pacifistic spiritual community with Afghanistan’s ruthless Taliban fighters, Blackman and Kopel make little distinction between the two. Indeed, the essay draws a parallel between the battle-hardened Afghan rebels and the Davidians who are described as yet another group "sincerely devoted to do evil." With this sweeping generalization, a diverse congregation which included musicians, Biblical scholars, Harvard graduates, religious seekers, mothers, children, and senior citizens is transformed into a malevolent band of religious warriors.

In fact, readers are informed that the February 28 BATF raid on Mt. Carmel was repulsed because the Branch Davidians allegedly "fought with the zeal of martyrs" causing the most "humiliating defeat" in the agency’s history.

Not only does this grossly mischaracterize the nature of the February raid, but the use of the term "defeat" is highly disingenuous. This wasn’t a confrontation between two equal military forces, but an agency of the federal government seeking to search a private residence and arrest one individual: David Koresh. Nevertheless, Blackman and Kopel portray the religious group as a unique military entity with its own faith-based esprit de corps.

The fact that Koresh and his followers were tipped off to the impending the raid and failed to give themselves up is submitted as further evidence that the allegedly "evil" Davidians "fully expected to be massacred at the hands of ‘Babylon’ (the American government)." Kopel and Blackman substantiate this by citing the testimony of "apostate Branch Davidians" and ATF agents.

However, the vindictive opinions of disaffected church members and self-serving ATF agents cannot be considered credible sources of information and it’s surprising that Blackman and Kopel would even entertain such a notion – especially in light of their extensive knowledge of this particular topic.

A cursory examination of the evidence indicates that if anyone was preparing for a violent confrontation it was ATF. In the weeks leading up to the blundered raid, agency officials were openly soliciting the assistance of military officials and the use of the Army Urban Terrain facility at Ft. Hood, TX. It is now known that these tactical preparations directly contradicted the express wishes of then US Attorney William Johnston who, according to the Treasury Department report "informed ATF early in the investigation that he would not authorize a search warrant" for the Davidian property "if it was to be executed through a siege-style operation."

Without debating the question of whether or nor the arrest of Koresh was warranted, it is certainly not difficult to surmise that his apprehension by federal law enforcement needn’t have cost any lives. Texas firearms dealer Henry McMahon has repeatedly testified that the sectarian leader was well aware he was under investigation for violating federal firearms statutes and willingly offered to cooperate with ATF agents. Moreover, federal officials have yet to make a good faith explanation as to why Koresh wasn’t taken into custody during his daily jogging sessions or frequent trips into town.

His conciliatory relationship with local law enforcement provides further proof that the dynamic-entry raid was largely unwarranted. Indeed, even as helicopters buzzed the sky in the tension-filled moments before the ATF arrived, Davidian Survivor Clive Doyle has testified that Koresh remained committed to resolving the matter peacefully. "He wanted everybody to remain calm, go back to their rooms, just stay cool" as "he would go down to the front door and talk" Doyle recalls. 911 transcripts of deceased Davdian Wayne Martin’s repeated requests for government agents to cease hostilities certainly undermine Kopel and Blackman’s assertion that the "Davidians intended to become martyrs and enter heaven":

Wayne Martin (WM): "Yeah there’s 75 men around our building and they’re shootin’ at us at Mt. Carmel!

WM: Yeah, tell em’ there’re women and children here and to call ‘em off!

Wayne Martin: Tell em’ to pull back…I have the right to defend myself. They started firing first!

As the 911 tape suggests, bringing an end to the shooting and protecting lives was a primary concern among members of the controversial religious community. This is reinforced by the testimony of Ken Fawcett a video technician who obtained an unedited feed of the one-sided gun battle which reportedly captured images of an "unidentified Davidian" who was seen "repeatedly calling for peace" from a lower story doorway only to be met by a "hail of gunfire." Fawcett also viewed footage showing wounded agents "being assisted by Branch Davidians in the stabilization and evacuation of wounded officers" – behavior he finds "inconsistent with persons having murderous intent." ("Why Waco?," Secret and Suppressed, Feral House, 1993).

Although Davidians fired back at ATF agents in self-defense, they were hardly prepared to ambush anyone much less engage in a sustained gun-battle with trained federal agents. "People were running around everywhere asking if anybody had any guns. Nobody had any handy. Most of what we had was new, still in the box" recounted a Davidian survivor to James L. Pate. ("What the Feds Don’t Want you to Know About Waco," Soldier of Fortune, October 1993). In the 1994 murder trial of 11 surviving Davidians, even the most compliant prosecution witnesses who agreed to testify against their co-religionists would not contradict defense arguments that the inhabitants of Mt. Carmel "were terrified of the raid and acted in self-defense."(Carol Moore, The Davidian Massacre, Legacy, 1995).

As the standoff ensued and the remaining Davidians were subjected to various methods of psychological warfare in order to force them out of their media-dubbed "compound," Kopel and Blackman glibly assert that the close-knit group "grew all the more convinced of the truth of Koresh’s prophecies." While religion certainly played a role in the lives of the desperate worshippers, this analysis fails to take into account the duplicitous role of corrupt FBI officials.

"Davidian’s were suspicious of the government’s intentions" writes Moore who points out that FBI promises to obtain medical assistance, allow the Davidians to retrieve the bodies of their dead, and send their children to relatives instead of Foster homes were all subsequently broken. Others feared that evidence of ATF malfeasance would be destroyed. The disappearance of the front door which would solve the controversy over who fired the first shot shows there was a great deal of validity to these concerns.

Addressing the final raid of April 19th, 1993, Kopel and Blackman allege that Davidians "faced a choice: a few final hours of suffering on earth, followed by an eternity in Heaven – or an eternity in Hell, for deserting their prophet in the moment of greatest crisis." The implication of this statement is clear: the Davidians had the means to escape but opted to remain inside in order to fulfill the wishes of their crazed spiritual leader. While the two authors correctly note that the injection of a lethal cocktail of CS gas and methylene chloride inadvertently killed several Davidians, they fail to mention other life-threatening hazards which may have blocked others from fleeing the smoke-filled building.

"The FBI’s use of tanks on April 19, 1993 evinced an extreme indifference to human life" remarks CATO Institute Legal Analyst Timothy Lynch. (No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident, Cato Institute, April 9, 2001). It is now believed that six children and three women perished due to these ill-advised demolition efforts. The trial testimony of Tarrant County Medical Examiner Dr. Nizaam Peerwani reveals that the nine corpses had no smoke in their lungs leading him to speculate that at least five of the children suffocated prior to the fire when a concrete ceiling caved in on them. Obviously many more were likely injured or possibly killed by these mountains of falling debris. Moreover, the tank destruction eliminated stairways, hallways, and ceilings in other rooms sowing mass confusion, stranding many, and blocking a number of once-viable exits with impenetrable chunks of fallen rubble.

The few who possessed the ability to escape from the deadly fire were further deterred by lethal FBI "ferret" rounds which were fired at Davidians by the hundreds. In fact, "newly released documents from the FBI show that agents asked for permission to shoot any unarmed Branch Davidians who left Mt. Carmel and approached their armored vehicles" notes Lynch. Although the request was denied no one can be sure these actions did not occur as the documents "outlined seven instances in which FBI agents threw or launched ‘flash bang’ grenades at Davidians who were exiting Mt. Carmel earlier in the standoff."

FBI Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) footage also provides documentary evidence that government forces were spraying the building with automatic weapon fire as the structure became engulfed in flames. Although the Bureau have repeatedly denied that its agents fired so much as a single shot during the stand off and its culmination, several examinations of the contested tape by no less than a half-dozen highly-credible experts dispute this contention.

In light of this contradictory information, it seems all the more unfathomable that two esteemed Libertarian thinkers like Kopel and Blackman would seek to resurrect the government’s indefensible "mass suicide" theory much less ATF claims that they were ambushed by trigger-happy religious fanatics. Nevertheless, these views cannot be reconciled with the facts as we know them. To the contrary, they stand in denial of all that we’ve learned.

I'm still waiting to see the illegally manufactured Sten guns that your ATF goon buddies claimed that the Davidians were manufacturing. Remember them? They were the one's used to obtain the original warrant.

And how about that blind man, Breault. Their case must have been pretty flimsy to use what he said.

I'm still waiting to see the knife that was used to kill Dayland Lord Little (Gent) We all know that knifes don't get up and walk out of a burning building on their own. Please explain what happened to the knife.

You've yet to explain how Peerwani's forensic team conducted a dental examinaion on Judy Schnieder's remains despite the fact that the head was missing from the body (Mt. Carmel Doe 51).

Nor have you explained where Peerwani's team obtained the dental and fingerprint charts for an unborn fetus. (Mt. Carmel Doe 58)

You made a big deal over the fact that the autopsy evidence showed that the gunshot wound victims were shot with pistols at close range, but have yet to produce the murder weapons. Have you discovered the means by which they grew legs and walked out of the concrete pantry?

You also made a big stink (no surprises here) over the wounds of Koresh and Schneider. Have you found the evidence that clearly shows that Schneider shot Koresh. You've never produced the murder weapon, despite my having to wait all these months.

Well, _Jim. We're waiting. Still.

dan

I am not disputing your evidence and we are on the same side, so if your remarks are your way of persuading an ally to your point of view, I would hate to see how you treat an enemy. Well, maybe I will see how you deal with _Jim. Good luck.

Again, no offense, but by mindlessly repeating government propaganda, you are an unwitting tool of the government.

You claim that the flashes prove that the government is lying, but have not even taken the time to determine the location of the bodies of the gunshot wound victims despite the fact that I provided a link to a web page that I set up that shows this and provides visual evidence which shows that what McNulty is saying is false. (Waco: A New Revelation - Automatic Gunfire Recorded on FLIR)

In other words, evidence that you can "see" for yourself.

Simply stated, when a bullet, like a 9mm or 5.56mm round strikes a concrete or masonry wall, it leaves a pockmark or crater. A visual examination of the concrete walls of the pantry reveal no pockmarks. None. Not on any of the three sides facing the back and sides of Mt. Carmel. The wooden building burned to the ground, but the photos and videotapes of the concrete walls provides us with visual evidence that what McNulty claims to be happening on the FLIR is false.

I will say this one last time.

No gunshot wound victims where found where McNulty claims. None were found anywhere near any of the exits located at the rear of the building. Without exception, all of the gunshot wound victims were found either in front of, inside of or on top of the concrete pantry.

It is physically impossible for someone located where McNulty claims the shooters to be, to have shot at the Branch Davidians with automatic weapons and not hit the concrete walls of the pantry and leave evidence of their actions. ("government forces were spraying the building with automatic weapon fire")

Because there were no pockmarks, there was no automatic weapons fire and no shooters.

What is claimed to be seen on the FLIR is false.

dan

All of the information I've seen pro or against tends to ignore what they have to say about it. Wonder why?

In two cases, it's hard to tell what's the truth in what they say.

Thibodeau is the source for the story that says that the mothers inside the pantry were using gas masks to protect themselves and buckets of water and blankets to protect their children. But after the fire, there were no gas masks recovered from inside the pantry. Nor were there any buckets recovered from inside the pantry. The autopsy reports also show that no bodies were recovered wearing gas masks.

When he was asked if he'd seen any of the mothers that morning, he first said, "no." When asked how he knew they were using gas masks, he said that one of the mothers had come out of the room and told him. When asked whom this was, he said he couldn't remember.

One of the mothers whose body was recovered from inside the pantry was Michelle Jones, Koresh's sister-in-law. Thibodeau says that Jones was his wife. He also says that one of her three children, 5-year-old Serenity Sea Jones was his and was inside the pantry with her mother, Michelle.

So, we're to believe that he did not check on his wife and three children the entire day of April 19.

Thibodeau was interviewed by the Jerusalem Post for an article published on October 14, 1994. In it, he is quoted as saying that when the CS gas attack started, he donned a gas mask. When the tanks started crashing into the building, he says he tried to reach the children whom he belives were in a buried bus. (huh?)

But with the stairways wrecked and fire all around him he staggered out of the door. Looking back he says he thought to himself that he knew his friends were dying and that he hoped the kids were safe in the bus. (huh?!)

In later accounts, he claims to have heard the screaming of the women and children inside the concrete room and that it went on for hours. His wife and children were in there and he does not check in on them a single time.

In still later accounts he says he became seperated from the women and children.

Clive Doyle also claims that he did not see any of the mothers and children on April 19. He did say he saw Cyrus Koresh on April 18 because the boy was sick, but that was all.

His accounts paint a similarly callous and indifferent attitude toward his 18-year-old daughter, Shari. She was shot in the back of the head and her body was recovered from the roof the pantry.

Trial testimony reveals that Doyle was able to save his dog by throwing it out the window not once, but three times, but he says that he did not see his daughter on that day, that he didn't know her whereabouts, nor did he try to find her before escaping from the burning building.

Interestingly, none of the survivors mention anything about other Davidians being shot with automatic weapons while trying to escape the back of the burning building.

dan

Ada, I do call them rogues, since I believe there are bad ones in any agency. I know 2 men who went to the FBI, straight from the Army, and there is no way I believe they are like Rogers and Jamar; further, believe there are many other good agents in the FBI. It bothers me that some posters insist on lumping then all together and either imply, or outright state the entire Govt law enforcement are corrupt and/or incompetent.

You can decide from their results whether they are corrupt and incompetent.

There is the same code of loyalty that we see in the police department--not all of them are on the take, steal from drug dealers, drink while on duty, etc., but most will not turn in those who do. The few that do will suffer. Loyalty to the group supercedes responsibility to the people they are supposed to be serving.

Were they stockpiling weapons? Not according to the locals, who have stated the Davidians bought guns needing repair, repaired and then sold, with the income one of their main sources of subsistence.

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED Machine guns The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode: 22 M-16 Type Rifles 20 AK-47 Type Rifles 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 2 M-11/Nine The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode. Silencers 21 Sound suppressors or silencers Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
FIREARMS Rifles and Rifle Components 61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers 61 AK-47 Type 34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers 13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge 11 7.62MM FN FAL Type 10 Mini-14 Type 7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type 6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1 6 Assorted Rifles 5 M-11/Nine 5 M-14 Type 3 Galil 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 1 Air Rifle 1 Heckler and Koch MP-5 1 Sten submachine gun
Pistols and Revolvers 23 Beretta 13 Glock 8 Assorted Revolvers 6 Safari Arms 6 Assorted Pistols 5 Sig Sauer 5 Walther 2 Taurus EXPLOSIVES Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades 100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or fusing system. 11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications. 219 Grenade Safety Pins 243 Grenade Safety Levers Rifle Grenades 200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.
FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS Silencers 21 Sound suppressors or silencers. Flash Suppressors 18 Flash Suppressors. Firearms Barrels 17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm) 8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber) 3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber) 1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm) 2 Ruger. 22 Caliber 1 M-60 machine gun 1 12 Gauge Shotgun 1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel 1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel Pistol Slides 1 Sig Sauer Model Revolver Parts 1 .38 Special caliber cylinder Bolt Carriers 39 M-16 24 AR-15 2 MP-5 2 AK-47 1 FAL 1 Unknown Bolts 15 AK-47 7 .22 LR conversion 3 M-16/AR-15 1 FN FAL (1) Bolt Assemblies 3 M-11/Nine 2 M-16 1 AR-15 1 MAC-10 1 Shotgun Recoil Springs and Guides 3 Glock 2 Sig Sauer 1 Beretta 1 M-11/Nine Stripper Clips 29 Stripper Clips Accessories 6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits Hammers 31 AK-47 18 M-16 12 AR-15 4 M-11/Nine 2 Sig Sauer 1 Beretta Hammer Springs 3 AK-47 Buffer/Recoil Springs 36 M-16/AR-15 4 AK-47 Selector Switches 9 M-16 3 AR-15 1 Unknown Sears 1 M-11/Nine Auto Sears 8 AK-47 4 M-16 1 FN FAL Auto Sear Springs 12 AK-47 Disconnects 7 AK-47 1 M-16 Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings 17 M-16 6 AR-15 3 M-60 3 M-11/Nine 2 MP-5 2 Sten 1 AK-47 1 Heckler & Koch 1 M-14 1 Smith & Wesson 1 Beretta 1 Shotgun Ammunition Magazines 289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type 248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type 108 Sten Gun Type 88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type 72 M-14 Type 61 Beretta Model Type 92 58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type 28 Ruger Mini-14 Type 22 .22 Caliber 17 UZI Type 16 USAS-12 Type 13 .45 Caliber 11 Glock 11 MP-5 11 Sig Sauer P226/P228 9 Unknown Type 7 .308 Caliber Galil Type 6 Walther PPK 5 9mm Unknown Type 4 .50 Caliber 3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine 3 .380 Auto Caliber 2 9mm Smith & Wesson 1 AK-74 Type 1 Grendel Ammunition Containers 220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers) 15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers) 4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers) 1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers) Magazine Springs 360 M-16/AR-15 42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type 35 AK-47 28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type 15 Unknown 10 M-14 6 M-1 Carbine 3 .50 Caliber 1 Mini-14 Magazine 1 Glock These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers, compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.

My two cents worth of things that smell here:

Bodies of the Davidians were being refrigerated, until the unit stopped functioning long enough for their remains to liquefy

CS gas was inserted into their home - a gas that is not allowed in military situations, let alone against civilians

CS gas is flammable. Incendiary rounds were fired at their home. Shortly thereafter, the home burns down.

Carlos G used state of the art equipment to examine the FLIR tape. He believed the tape showed government types shooting at the Davidians' home. Shortly thereafter, Carlos G died at his home. Carlos G was not particularly old nor sick.

3 or 4 ex-bodyguards of Clinton died in the initial raid.

Whatever Koresh may or may not have done, the government is at least partially responsible for other deaths here. Kathrine Andrade and Shari Doyle, two children, did not have to die here.

It was never all of the FBI, but there are fewer around now who complain about the tactical people. The old timers I knew ridiculed that stuff all the time. McGavin supervised the final assault from the FLIR plane as it orbited the scene. One of the items of evidence that was found at Quantico was the audio tape of McGavin giving permission for the HRT to use the military incendiary CS rounds on the tornado shelter roof. Rodgers was in charge of the HRT, but McGavin was in command of the 4/19 assault.

156 posted on 11/30/01 5:43 PM Pacific by roughrider

Just read that part of the tape transcript at a PBS site. Yet, Rogers got permission from someone to give authority to McGavin, and that had to come from Washington. If we rely on McNulty's tape, Rogers is heard (seen) giving okay to someone to use, which must be McGavin. According to Danny Coulson, no one on site had authority to change from using non-pyro canisters to pyro canisters. This leads me to the one who authorized use of non-pyro ONLY, one Reno. Where was Reno at the time? In Baltimore. Who was at the helm in DC? Clinton and pals. Who authorized Rogers to use (and transmit to McGavin) pyro canisters? Can't be anyone else than Clintons and pals (Hubbel and Foster, who were with him).

Could it be McGavin is being "used" in the same manner as was Reno?

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED Machine guns The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode: 22 M-16 Type Rifles 20 AK-47 Type Rifles 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 2 M-11/Nine The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode. Silencers 21 Sound suppressors or silencers Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades.

House of Representatives Report 104-749 8/2/96 Committee of Government Reform & Oversight "..."The staff also had an opportunity to inspect the physical evidence taken from the ruins of the residence after the fire, much of which had been used in the criminal trial of surviving Davidians. By prior agreement with the Justice Department, a potential witness at the hearings, Failure Analysis Associates, Inc., was to inspect some of the physical evidence in order to respond to tampering allegations. It was believed that the views of scientists from Failure Analysis, who had often performed scientific evaluations for the Federal Government, including the Justice Department and NASA after the Challenger explosion, would be beneficial given public suspicions about the firearms recovered from the site of the Davidian residence. The inspection would not have damaged the weapons and was to have been conducted in the presence of all parties. It was hoped that the inspection would determine whether the Davidians had attempted to alter legal, semi-automatic weapons by converting them into illegal, automatic weapons as the ATF had alleged, and whether any of this evidence had been altered after it was gathered from the destroyed Davidian residence. When the scientists arrived in Austin, the Department declined to make the firearms available to them. The Department agreed instead to conduct the tests itself and present its findings to the subcommittees. A short time later, the Department urged, for cost considerations, that the tests not be performed. As a result, no tests were performed on the firearms." ....."

"...As a result, no tests were performed on the firearms."

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