Posted on 11/26/2001 9:33:39 AM PST by Aerial
Thanks for posting the link.
Much of the trajectory evidence, like the front doors to the building, were removed by The FBI and then later "lost". The local Medical Examiner requested some of this evidence and was denied. The fiasco at Waco was a botched raid staged by the BATF in an attempt for a media coup to make them look good.
And how about that blind man, Breault. Their case must have been pretty flimsy to use what he said.
I'm still waiting to see the knife that was used to kill Dayland Lord Little (Gent) We all know that knifes don't get up and walk out of a burning building on their own. Please explain what happened to the knife.
You've yet to explain how Peerwani's forensic team conducted a dental examinaion on Judy Schnieder's remains despite the fact that the head was missing from the body (Mt. Carmel Doe 51).
Nor have you explained where Peerwani's team obtained the dental and fingerprint charts for an unborn fetus. (Mt. Carmel Doe 58)
You made a big deal over the fact that the autopsy evidence showed that the gunshot wound victims were shot with pistols at close range, but have yet to produce the murder weapons. Have you discovered the means by which they grew legs and walked out of the concrete pantry?
You also made a big stink (no surprises here) over the wounds of Koresh and Schneider. Have you found the evidence that clearly shows that Schneider shot Koresh. You've never produced the murder weapon, despite my having to wait all these months.
Well, _Jim. We're waiting. Still.
dan
And, you have not convinced me that the flashes prove nothing. Quite the contrary, they prove the government (Danforth included) is lying. How is that spouting Gov propaganda?
I am not disputing your evidence and we are on the same side, so if your remarks are your way of persuading an ally to your point of view, I would hate to see how you treat an enemy. Well, maybe I will see how you deal with _Jim. Good luck.
Again, no offense, but by mindlessly repeating government propaganda, you are an unwitting tool of the government.
You claim that the flashes prove that the government is lying, but have not even taken the time to determine the location of the bodies of the gunshot wound victims despite the fact that I provided a link to a web page that I set up that shows this and provides visual evidence which shows that what McNulty is saying is false. (Waco: A New Revelation - Automatic Gunfire Recorded on FLIR)
In other words, evidence that you can "see" for yourself.
Simply stated, when a bullet, like a 9mm or 5.56mm round strikes a concrete or masonry wall, it leaves a pockmark or crater. A visual examination of the concrete walls of the pantry reveal no pockmarks. None. Not on any of the three sides facing the back and sides of Mt. Carmel. The wooden building burned to the ground, but the photos and videotapes of the concrete walls provides us with visual evidence that what McNulty claims to be happening on the FLIR is false.
I will say this one last time.
No gunshot wound victims where found where McNulty claims. None were found anywhere near any of the exits located at the rear of the building. Without exception, all of the gunshot wound victims were found either in front of, inside of or on top of the concrete pantry.
It is physically impossible for someone located where McNulty claims the shooters to be, to have shot at the Branch Davidians with automatic weapons and not hit the concrete walls of the pantry and leave evidence of their actions. ("government forces were spraying the building with automatic weapon fire")
Because there were no pockmarks, there was no automatic weapons fire and no shooters.
What is claimed to be seen on the FLIR is false.
dan
In two cases, it's hard to tell what's the truth in what they say.
Thibodeau is the source for the story that says that the mothers inside the pantry were using gas masks to protect themselves and buckets of water and blankets to protect their children. But after the fire, there were no gas masks recovered from inside the pantry. Nor were there any buckets recovered from inside the pantry. The autopsy reports also show that no bodies were recovered wearing gas masks.
When he was asked if he'd seen any of the mothers that morning, he first said, "no." When asked how he knew they were using gas masks, he said that one of the mothers had come out of the room and told him. When asked whom this was, he said he couldn't remember.
One of the mothers whose body was recovered from inside the pantry was Michelle Jones, Koresh's sister-in-law. Thibodeau says that Jones was his wife. He also says that one of her three children, 5-year-old Serenity Sea Jones was his and was inside the pantry with her mother, Michelle.
So, we're to believe that he did not check on his wife and three children the entire day of April 19.
Thibodeau was interviewed by the Jerusalem Post for an article published on October 14, 1994. In it, he is quoted as saying that when the CS gas attack started, he donned a gas mask. When the tanks started crashing into the building, he says he tried to reach the children whom he belives were in a buried bus. (huh?)
But with the stairways wrecked and fire all around him he staggered out of the door. Looking back he says he thought to himself that he knew his friends were dying and that he hoped the kids were safe in the bus. (huh?!)
In later accounts, he claims to have heard the screaming of the women and children inside the concrete room and that it went on for hours. His wife and children were in there and he does not check in on them a single time.
In still later accounts he says he became seperated from the women and children.
Clive Doyle also claims that he did not see any of the mothers and children on April 19. He did say he saw Cyrus Koresh on April 18 because the boy was sick, but that was all.
His accounts paint a similarly callous and indifferent attitude toward his 18-year-old daughter, Shari. She was shot in the back of the head and her body was recovered from the roof the pantry.
Trial testimony reveals that Doyle was able to save his dog by throwing it out the window not once, but three times, but he says that he did not see his daughter on that day, that he didn't know her whereabouts, nor did he try to find her before escaping from the burning building.
Interestingly, none of the survivors mention anything about other Davidians being shot with automatic weapons while trying to escape the back of the burning building.
dan
Wouldn't call them rogues. Just the upper echelon who covers for each other--in organizations like the FBI and the Gestapo loyalty is considered a first-class virtue.
You do make a good point, but if you recall, there was recently an agent who wanted to testify before Congress, but reluctant to do in open hearing. I recall there was to be an executive session where he may tell what he knows. With a new director maybe some of the rot that is still on board will be dumped.
You can decide from their results whether they are corrupt and incompetent.
There is the same code of loyalty that we see in the police department--not all of them are on the take, steal from drug dealers, drink while on duty, etc., but most will not turn in those who do. The few that do will suffer. Loyalty to the group supercedes responsibility to the people they are supposed to be serving.
H, I have serious doubt about the authenticity of your list in any fashion. But, WHERE is your documentation on this single statement. Peace and love, George.
Bodies of the Davidians were being refrigerated, until the unit stopped functioning long enough for their remains to liquefy
CS gas was inserted into their home - a gas that is not allowed in military situations, let alone against civilians
CS gas is flammable. Incendiary rounds were fired at their home. Shortly thereafter, the home burns down.
Carlos G used state of the art equipment to examine the FLIR tape. He believed the tape showed government types shooting at the Davidians' home. Shortly thereafter, Carlos G died at his home. Carlos G was not particularly old nor sick.
3 or 4 ex-bodyguards of Clinton died in the initial raid.
Whatever Koresh may or may not have done, the government is at least partially responsible for other deaths here. Kathrine Andrade and Shari Doyle, two children, did not have to die here.
156 posted on 11/30/01 5:43 PM Pacific by roughrider
Just read that part of the tape transcript at a PBS site. Yet, Rogers got permission from someone to give authority to McGavin, and that had to come from Washington. If we rely on McNulty's tape, Rogers is heard (seen) giving okay to someone to use, which must be McGavin. According to Danny Coulson, no one on site had authority to change from using non-pyro canisters to pyro canisters. This leads me to the one who authorized use of non-pyro ONLY, one Reno. Where was Reno at the time? In Baltimore. Who was at the helm in DC? Clinton and pals. Who authorized Rogers to use (and transmit to McGavin) pyro canisters? Can't be anyone else than Clintons and pals (Hubbel and Foster, who were with him).
Could it be McGavin is being "used" in the same manner as was Reno?
House of Representatives Report 104-749 8/2/96 Committee of Government Reform & Oversight "..."The staff also had an opportunity to inspect the physical evidence taken from the ruins of the residence after the fire, much of which had been used in the criminal trial of surviving Davidians. By prior agreement with the Justice Department, a potential witness at the hearings, Failure Analysis Associates, Inc., was to inspect some of the physical evidence in order to respond to tampering allegations. It was believed that the views of scientists from Failure Analysis, who had often performed scientific evaluations for the Federal Government, including the Justice Department and NASA after the Challenger explosion, would be beneficial given public suspicions about the firearms recovered from the site of the Davidian residence. The inspection would not have damaged the weapons and was to have been conducted in the presence of all parties. It was hoped that the inspection would determine whether the Davidians had attempted to alter legal, semi-automatic weapons by converting them into illegal, automatic weapons as the ATF had alleged, and whether any of this evidence had been altered after it was gathered from the destroyed Davidian residence. When the scientists arrived in Austin, the Department declined to make the firearms available to them. The Department agreed instead to conduct the tests itself and present its findings to the subcommittees. A short time later, the Department urged, for cost considerations, that the tests not be performed. As a result, no tests were performed on the firearms." ....."
"...As a result, no tests were performed on the firearms."
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