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Waco Lies Revisited
LewRockwell.com ^ | November 26, 2001 | Cletus Nelson

Posted on 11/26/2001 9:33:39 AM PST by Aerial

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To: AAABEST
I'll ignore your dopey "smartass" comment and just say that I wasn't "trying to be" anything. Undertrained, paramilitary civil servants bashing in citizens doors with automatic weapons happens to be a very important issue to me. Many are concerned, and trying to convince others with "blathering your ignorance" won't help them to learn what happened. Perhaps we can check on one another.
121 posted on 11/28/2001 1:45:58 PM PST by katze
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To: katze
The last I read about Danforth, he is wavering, claiming he was denied some needed information.

This tells me he expects at least some of the truth to be exposed and needs to a) cover his completely knowledgeable and complicitous butt, or b) cover himself for running an incomplete and inaccurate investigation. I guess it's also possible that he trusted some people that he shouldn't have... In any case I hope he's right that the truth is on its way.

122 posted on 11/28/2001 2:30:00 PM PST by Sal
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
I stand corrected. I said FBI when I meant 'feds'. They were not going into the compound, their bullets were. The reference to sunlight was reference to the official explanation of what the flashes were (which is ludicrous). No, I haven't studied Waco to the extent you have and don't know where the bodies were found. I don't need to. That is my point. I know the government story is a lie without having to study it - as the FLIR proves it.
123 posted on 11/28/2001 5:03:50 PM PST by Earn Your Vote
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To: katze
Jeffrey Jamar was out of the Dallas Field Office, and was a regular supervisor of agents. Dallas handles the Waco area. Just what body was in charge, the HRT or the regular agents, has been pondered ever since this happened. Someone was able to keep William Sessions, former mayor of Waco and a former judge from that city, from going personally to the site. The story was that "the tactical" people overruled the Director of the FBI, Sessions, concerning a visit at the site. "Tactical people" would mean Dick Rodgers, as he was the chief of the "tactical people" on site. His second-in-command, Steven McGavin, who flew overhead in the FLIR plane during the assault, was far more important in the chain-of-command than people realize.
124 posted on 11/28/2001 5:08:24 PM PST by roughrider
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To: Aerial
Another mis-informed little opinion-piece utilizing selelective little 'factoids' carefully picked from the whole for the reason that they can be interpreted to reinforce a pre-conceived mindset and draw the *usual* audience ...

... all from from the likes of LoserRockwell.com whose 'hit' numbers must certainly be falling after all the negative knocks they receive here on FR ...

125 posted on 11/28/2001 5:15:38 PM PST by _Jim
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To: _Jim
#125 Dammit, _Jim, I like you and respect you and don't mind telling that I rarely disagree with you, but you know I do on this one. Does not mean, however, that I'm a Lew Rockwell reader, not be any stretch. ;-)

I have to work on converting you on this Waco issue. Yeah, fat chance, eh?

126 posted on 11/28/2001 5:29:51 PM PST by katze
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To: roughrider
The story was that "the tactical" people overruled the Director of the FBI, Sessions, concerning a visit at the site. "Tactical people" would mean Dick Rodgers, as he was the chief of the "tactical people" on site. His second-in-command, Steven McGavin, who flew overhead in the FLIR plane during the assault, was far more important in the chain-of-command than people realize.

124 posted on 11/28/01 6:08 PM Pacific by roughrider

Sounds like you and I agree on something, for perhaps the first time. IOW, the rogue group of the FBI that I've often griped about, insisting it isn't ALL of the FBI.

I've heard McGavin's name, but nothing else about him. I'm not sure of your context in saying he flew in the FLIR plane. What I'm trying to ask is--whose side was McG on? Or did someone get the tape by unusual means, since IMO it is most revealing of Govt misdoing?

127 posted on 11/28/2001 5:35:48 PM PST by katze
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To: Sal
#122 Agree. While I do not have complete trust in him, I can't see Danforth deliberately hiding what happened. Read once or twice, I believe in Dallas Morning News about his statement that information was not provided. Maybe a CYA on his part, but I hope not.
128 posted on 11/28/2001 5:38:46 PM PST by katze
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To: Sal
#122 Should have mentioned, I believe Dallas Morning News has an archive on Waco; most written by Lee Hancock, outstanding journalist and articles.
129 posted on 11/28/2001 5:40:49 PM PST by katze
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To: roughrider; Ada Coddington
#124 Here's what PBS has on his Biograpgy. I can't do links the correct way.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/jamarbio.html

Jeffrey Jamar, Special Agent in charge
of the San Antonio regional office of
the FBI, served as the on-site
commander during the Waco siege.
Jamar retired in December 1994 after
twenty five and a half years in the FBI.

He was the boss.

130 posted on 11/28/2001 6:01:08 PM PST by katze
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To: katze
Can't do links, can't spell. Biography.
131 posted on 11/28/2001 6:02:32 PM PST by katze
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To: Mike_Manske
Do you want to buy some cheap real estate in afghanistan?
132 posted on 11/28/2001 6:29:20 PM PST by poet
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To: Earn Your Vote
...No, I haven't studied Waco to the extent you have and don't know where the bodies were found. I don't need to. That is my point. I know the government story is a lie without having to study it - as the FLIR proves it.

The FLIR proves nothing, because nothing but flashes are seen on a videotape that originally came from the FBI itself.

What's seen on the FLIR does not jibe with the forensic evidence. But instead of confirming this for yourself by following the link I provided, you choose to sit back in your Lazy Boy chair and watch the video that the FBI provided.

In fact, every crucial point made in Waco: A New Revelation is a lie, but you're too lazy to find out for yourself. Instead, you choose to parrot the government's lies and in so doing, make yourself the government's useful idiot.

As I wrote before, you have beed duped by government propaganda.

In parting, I will leave you with this to chew on. It's a compilation of Goebbel's Principles of Propaganda. This was the playbook by which the government pulled the wool over the public's (and your) eyes. Closely study #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #13 and #14. (especially #5 & #6)

FRegards,

dan


Goebbels' Principles of Propaganda

1. Propagandist must have access to intelligence concerning events and public opinion.

2. Propaganda must be planned and executed by only one authority.
   a. It must issue all the propaganda directives
   b. It must explain propaganda directives to important officials and maintain their morale
   c. It must oversee other agencies' activities which have propaganda consequences

3. The propaganda consequences of an action must be considered in planning that action.

4. Propaganda must affect the enemy's policy and action.
   a. By suppressing propagandistically desirable material which can provide the enemy with useful intelligence
   b. By openly disseminating propaganda whose content or tone causes the enemy to draw the desired conclusions
   c. By goading the enemy into revealing vital information about himself
   d. By making no reference to a desired enemy activity when any reference would discredit that activity

5. Declassified, operational information must be available to implement a propaganda campaign

6. To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting communications medium.

7. Credibility alone must determine whether propaganda output should be true or false.

8. The purpose, content and effectiveness of enemy propaganda; the strength and effects of an expose; and the nature of current propaganda campaigns determine whether enemy propaganda should be ignored or refuted.

9. Credibility, intelligence, and the possible effects of communicating determine whether propaganda materials should be censored.

10. Material from enemy propaganda may be utilized in operations when it helps diminish that enemy's prestige or lends support to the propagandist's own objective.

11. Black rather than white propaganda may be employed when the latter is less credible or produces undesirable effects.

12. Propaganda may be facilitated by leaders with prestige.

13. Propaganda must be carefully timed.
   a. The communication must reach the audience ahead of competing propaganda.
   b. A propaganda campaign must begin at the optimum moment
   c. A propaganda theme must be repeated, but not beyond some point of diminishing effectiveness

14. Propaganda must label events and people with distinctive phrases or slogans.
   a. They must evoke desired responses which the audience previously possesses
   b. They must be capable of being easily learned
   c. They must be utilized again and again, but only in appropriate situations
   d. They must be boomerang-proof

15. Propaganda to the home front must prevent the raising of false hopes which can be blasted by future events.

16. Propaganda to the home front must create an optimum anxiety level.
   a. Propaganda must reinforce anxiety concerning the consequences of defeat
   b. Propaganda must diminish anxiety (other than concerning the consequences of defeat) which is too high and which cannot be reduced by people themselves

17. Propaganda to the home front must diminish the impact of frustration.
   a. Inevitable frustrations must be anticipated
   b. Inevitable frustrations must be placed in perspective

18. Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred.

19. Propaganda cannot immediately affect strong counter-tendencies; instead it must offer some form of action or diversion, or both.

Based upon "Goebbels' Principles of Propaganda" by Leonard W. Doob published in "Public Opinion and Propaganda; A Book of Readings edited for The Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues."

Politprop Library
http://www.mcad.edu/classrooms/POLITPROP/palace/library/goebbels.html

133 posted on 11/28/2001 6:38:23 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker
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To: katze
I can't quite believe Danforth didn't know he was reporting lies. I know some managers delegate a lot more than others. Reagan was a BIG delegator and I liked and admired him. I guess its's possible Danforth trusted people he shouldn't have, but don't ya think he just might have noticed when TWO of his major technical witnesses were taken out... Especially when they were the ones who said 180 degrees different from what his final report said. If I remember correctly one of them (not an old man) died of what apppeared to be a "heart attack" in his lab, and the other had a serious "stroke" from which he recovered to some degree, but he didn't testify after that.

Here's a link for the DMN archive URL you sent me. Thanks.

134 posted on 11/28/2001 7:09:57 PM PST by Sal
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To: katze
Right ...

... VERY fat chance ... you ever read the background story by the Waco paper on that perp Howell?

PS. You're a victim of much hyperbole from a variety of Johnie-come-lately types who seek to profit from the discontent they can raise by crying: 'Waco - the babies and the childen they killed!' when IN FACT it was well within the responsibility and control of Vernon Wayne Howell to have ended this tragedy most peacefully ...

PSS. I'm still waiting for one of you, with a straight face, to offer ANY shred of coherent, credible testimony that COUNTERS that of Gramme Craddock (himself a so-called 'Davidian' or more correctly a 'Howellian') wherein Gramme cites the Davadians/Howellians as starting the several fires that finally consumed the compound and the bodies of most of those mentally held there by Vernon Wayne Howell ...

135 posted on 11/28/2001 7:12:04 PM PST by _Jim
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To: katze
They fired.
136 posted on 11/28/2001 7:12:46 PM PST by crystalk
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To: Sal
I can't quite believe Danforth didn't know he was reporting lies.

COULD JUST BE that he *wasn't* reporting lies ...

Do ANY of you people actually read for content?

No, not many of you - and CERTAINLY not the pro-Waco Howellian propagandists like 'Ol Dan the Ducker above ...

137 posted on 11/28/2001 7:16:36 PM PST by _Jim
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To: crystalk
They fired.

The Howellians?

They sure did ...

138 posted on 11/28/2001 7:17:45 PM PST by _Jim
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To: _Jim
You are deluded. All four government casualties were due to friendly fire.
139 posted on 11/28/2001 7:26:37 PM PST by crystalk
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To: _Jim
"PS. You're a victim of much hyperbole from a variety of Johnie-come-lately types who seek to profit from the discontent they can raise by crying: 'Waco - the babies and the childen they killed!' when IN FACT it was well within the responsibility and control of Vernon Wayne Howell to have ended this tragedy most peacefully ... "

No way do I listen to the "babies and the children". But, I have read enought to believe that there is guilt within a bad group of trigger-happy agents, not only condoned, but likely encouraged by the Clintons, to show what they could do to and with an unpopular man like Koresh. Perhaps some sort of sick game with people like Rogers and Jamar, and a few more similar to them. With all the hell I've caught from the conspiracy crowd, you should know I feel there is sufficient reason to believe wrongdoing, or I wouldn't be on this thread.

140 posted on 11/28/2001 8:24:30 PM PST by katze
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