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To: proud2bRC
Unfortunately, the unibeliever already knows this. On other threads he has posted the CCC excerpt that says essentially what you said to him. That just is not good enough for him here. He wants to see "veneration of images" spelled out word for word in scripture.

There is not the slightest hint to support you but plenty of condemnation of idolatry.

Of course it is not spelled out word for word in scripture, any more than "Trinity," as we understand it today, is spelled out LITERALLY in scripture.

I JOHN 5:6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
I JOHN 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
I JOHN 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I JOHN 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

175 posted on 12/01/2001 7:50:09 AM PST by Unbeliever
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To: Unbeliever
Here is a valid argument from a protestant source that the doctrine of the Trinity is not scriptural:

What About Trinity "Proof Texts"?


IT IS said that some Bible texts offer proof in support of the Trinity. However, when reading such texts, we should keep in mind that the Biblical and historical evidence does not support the Trinity.

Any Bible reference offered as proof must be understood in the context of the consistent teaching of the entire Bible. Very often the true meaning of such a text is clarified by the context of surrounding verses.

Three in One


THE New Catholic Encyclopedia offers three such "proof texts" but also admits: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]. In the N[ew] T[estament] the oldest evidence is in the Pauline epistles, especially 2 Cor 13.13 [verse 14 in some Bibles], and 1 Cor 12.4-6. In the Gospels evidence of the Trinity is found explicitly only in the baptismal formula of Mt 28.19."

In those verses the three "persons" are listed as follows in The New Jerusalem Bible. Second Corinthians 13:13 (14) puts the three together in this way: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." First Corinthians 12:4-6 says: "There are many different gifts, but it is always the same Spirit; there are many different ways of serving, but it is always the same Lord. There are many different forms of activity, but in everybody it is the same God who is at work in them all." And Matthew 28:19 reads: "Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Do those verses say that God, Christ, and the holy spirit constitute a Trinitarian Godhead, that the three are equal in substance, power, and eternity? No, they do not, no more than listing three people, such as Tom, Dick, and Harry, means that they are three in one.

This type of reference, admits McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, "proves only that there are the three subjects named, . . . but it does not prove, by itself, that all the three belong necessarily to the divine nature, and possess equal divine honor.",/b>

Although a supporter of the Trinity, that source says of 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14): "We could not justly infer that they possessed equal authority, or the same nature." And of Matthew 28:18-20 it says: "This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity."

Jesus praying
When Jesus was baptized, God, Jesus, and the holy spirit were also mentioned in the same context. Jesus "saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him." (Matthew 3:16) This, however, does not say that the three are one. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned together numerous times, but that does not make them one. Peter, James, and John are named together, but that does not make them one either. Furthermore, God's spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism, showing that Jesus was not anointed by spirit until that time. This being so, how could he be part of a Trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit?

Another reference that speaks of the three together is found in some older Bible translations at 1 John 5:7. Scholars acknowledge, however, that these words were not originally in the Bible but were added much later. Most modern translations rightly omit this spurious verse.

Other "proof texts" deal only with the relationship between two—the Father and Jesus. Let us consider some of them.

*****

So, if scriptural proof texts are inadequate to prove the doctrine of the Trinity as you and I accept it, then what authority DID define the doctrine of the Trinity as you and I understand it. It clearly is NOT clear from a reading of scripture alone.

By the way, after I left Catholicism for your type of Christianity, the lack of scriptural proof texts for the doctrine of the Trinity helped bring me back home. If you are intellectually honest and take a literal interpretation of scripture, ignoring Catholic development of doctrine, you should be a JW.


177 posted on 12/01/2001 10:21:38 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Unbeliever
I'd like to hear your thoughts on my post #177. They are the crux of our differences of opinion, i.e., is everything you and I believe literally in scripture, and if so, why aren't you a JW, and if not, why are you not Catholic? No other position on the Trinity holds up, its either the JW way or my way. Yours doesn't hold up either way. God Bless.
181 posted on 12/01/2001 5:50:06 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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