JetBlue Pilot Saw American Airlines Crash

Reuters ^ | Patrick Markey

[The Magical Mischief Tour]

By Patrick Markey

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A JetBlue Airways pilot waiting for take-off at John F. Kennedy International Airport saw the American Airlines flight that crashed on Monday as it fell from the sky accompanied by smoke and a smaller piece of the aircraft, according to an internal report.

The pilot told the JetBlue officials that in its final moments American Airlines Flight 587 appeared to be in a very steep descent, falling nose down at about 80 degrees in a spiral dive.

Before it exploded on impact, the aircraft was accompanied by the smaller piece above and to the right or southwest of the smoke trailing behind the main body, according to the internal JetBlue report provided to Reuters.

The investigation into Monday's crash has become centered on the Airbus A300's tail fin and rudder that separated from the plane before it crashed killing up to 265 people, including casualties on the ground.

Investigators recovered the tail fin of the aircraft from Jamaica Bay.

Preliminary flight data released on Thursday showed the aircraft, operated by AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, was buffeted twice by turbulence in its final moments before beginning a sharp downward turn to the left.

Safety investigators said the turn occurred even as the pilots' controls were set to the right, suggesting the plane was no longer responding to pilot commands.

Investigators are still examining and comparing information from the aircraft's black box and its flight data recorder to piece together a clearer picture of what happened.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Thanks for the info on the graphite material. What about the rounded area at the detachment point - is that a place where the tail fin has something like a socket - what fits into it? IF not - it is a very smooth rounded surface. Is this where it attaches to whatever mechanism can rotate the tail fin (vertical stabilizer) right or left? (the rounded attachment surface - and it has like a feint painted border around the outside edge of it).

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Appreciate the comments. Learning this is graphite material. Won't bend - like metal. Looking for more info on that socket looking area - and what it was attached to.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Thanks for the linked discussion.

[Tymesup]

"If the government is going to lie to us"

If this was terrorism, won't it happen again? Is the government going to keep making up lies for each crash? It's hard to believe they would make this choice.

In contrast, if TWA 800 was caused by a Navy accident, the government could reasonably believe it wouldn't happen again, and could trot out the center wing flapdoodle.

[FrdmLvr]

I ain't goin' along with the "it fell apart because it hit wind" story...

First time I heard that I thought maybe they also had a bridge they wanted to sell. BTW, how many times has a plane taken off 15 seconds too soon in another plane's wake? Must be never cuz this is the first one that's fallen apart in the air.

[TheOtherOne]

5. He conjectures that the rudder started to come loose from failure of the Von epoxy (whatever I can't remember) material of the pin, and it was the rudder flapping that causes the airframe shudder, not wake turbulence. The torque of the flapping rudder caused the plane to veer back and forth to the point that the engines came loose and one maybe took a wing with it. When the Captain tried to make the drastic maneuvers necessary to regain a semblance of control, the French computer overrode him.

This makes sense to me. The question is still WHY did the rudder/VS fall off?

[teletech]

Here are some excellent pictures of the tail, the stab, etc.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2001/AA587/tailcomp.htm

Cut and paste into your browser.

Thanks for the pictures.

[jammer]

I only know one thing: I don't want in an Airbus! My son is flying here in two weeks and we got his ticket last night off the net. The best price was AA, but on two segments there were Airbuses scheduled. No way. No how. We'll pay more (or take the bus).

[Tymesup]

Whoa! Can you elaborate on this change in the FAA database?

[Asmodeus]

"The desire by some to guide, as well as possible, the shaky, stumbling footsteps of Washington in troubled times so that it does not itself (completely) cross the threshold into becoming an enemy of the Constitution is a good thing."

Not just in troubled times - ALL the time. That's the bedrock of Conservatism. But the tinfoil hat conspiracy theory skinheads and their camp followers - the kooks, nuts and haters - are for the most part giving aid and comfort to the OPPONENTS of the Conservative cause with a constant blizzard of anti-government unproven, untenable and wildly reckless conspiracy and coverup allegations - while labeling themselves as Conservatives.

There is NO EVIDENCE that the crash of Flight 587 had a terrorist or otherwise intentional cause. Yet, literally within minutes after the disaster, springloaded tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists and their camp followers were on the attack and reviving their long ago debunked Flight 800 "missile shootdown" claims as support for their anti-government stance on the Flight 587 disaster, ignoring or oblivious to the fact that their Flight 800 allegations arose out of their own erroneous assumptions and sinister suspicions. See The "Missile Witnesses" Myth

[Hillarys Gate Cult]

I didn't know that about the fuel. So what about the hydraulic fluid? When a plane loses hydraulic fluid it creates a vapor trail that is very hard to tell from smoke. Previous aircraft events have pilots of chase planes not able to tell the difference between a fire and a major hydraulic fluid leak. The best way to tell was that a plane has a fire and is not just losing fluid is that a fire sometimes gets worse and produces more smoke.

[chemainus]

#92 Why are you an apologist trying to get the stuff to stick to the ceiling with far out observations that have never been made and were not made by witnesses of the event ?

[Tymesup]

You may believe Flight 800 was not brought down by a missile. It's not clear that your link debunks this theory.

The link talks about TWA rising from 13,800 feet to 17,000 feet, which has been discussed here at FR. Many are skeptical.

Your link in turn links to Major Meyer's own site. Major Meyer states there "My purpose in being here tonight is to tell you that what I saw explode in the sky on July 17, 1996 was military ordnance".

Here is my transcript of an interview with Mike Wire on WABC radio 770 AM on 8/23/2001:

I was on bridge in Westhampton, taking a break, thought it was fireworks, disappeared, big fireball in sky
Startled? Thought it was mid-air collision, didn’t associate firework with collision
What did you see?
White,brilliant light going up, stated in FBI
45 degree angle, wavering, zigzagging
Made turn out to sea started zigging, seemed to settle down

It seems to me that this description describes a missile.

[Asmodeus]

Although nearly 5 1/2 years have now gone by since the Flight 800 disaster, the tinfoil hat "missile(s) shootdown" conspiracy theorists have still not been able to even agree among themselves how many missiles were allegedly involved, much less either individually or collectively on a sequential timeline of the major events they're alleging.

This reference source includes not only the following sequential timeline of the major events but a detailed explanation and supporting documentatuon:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:47 explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet. The eyewitnesses contend that the Massive Fireball explosion was immediately preceded by the fiery streak.

8:31:55-8:31:57 splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

ALL of the missile shootdown allegations are incompatible with that sequential timeline of major events - including those you have now presented - without extending the readers the courtesy of documenting it with a reference source URL - pertaining to witness Wire's observations.

This country is now at war and it's unpatriotic and stupid for "missile shootdown" conspiracy theorists to incite suspicion, fear and hatred of our government, thereby giving aid and comfort to our enemies, with wildly reckless allegations about the Flight 800 disaster that they can't even agree upon among themselves much less agree on a sequential timeline of the major events.

[DreamWeaver]

God_isa_Jew: I would appreciate it if you could please address the question that I previously asked you, which is:

Question :Why is it that if we should question anything that has to do with Israel or "their media outlet" we are labeled an enemy of Israel as you just did with me.??? I and many others question what our govt in America tells us, does that make us an enemy of America ??? Please address this question. I really would like to hear your explanation !

[El Gato]

The material that the tail fin was made of is a carbon fiber composite. The dark material is probably just exposed carbon fibers, althoug I agree parts of it look charred. Of course friction from a part working loose could do that too, I suppose, but I would hope such looseness would have been noticed earlier.

[El Gato]

but I assume that there is plenty rotation in that joint, like an axle

There is not supposed to be any rotation. It's not an axle or a bearing, just an attachment point. It does look as if there was some rotation or at least movement there, doesn't it?

[El Gato]

but our little Cessna, holding short on the taxiway, will get it's wings ripped off after only 3 or 4 seconds in the air.

Probably not, the aircraft would respond to the WT and flip over. In fact in tests they did just that. Although the Cessna involved was a T-37, rather than a -172/T-41, but the "heavy" was a 747. The -37 is 2-3 times as heavy, but has about the same wingspan and length. The T-37 did two quick snap rolls, but nothing fell off.

[El Gato]

Uh, the "French Computer" was made in the good ole USA.

Of course where the computer was made doesn't tell you anything. We build better computers so it's not surprising Airbus chose an American one. What matters is who programmed it, and even more what they programed it to do.