Passenger Plane Crash in Queens NYC!

Fox News ^

[concerned about politics]

That's too good. You're hollering about repeated information, but you post the identical message three times.

That "person" is hasseling people on other threads too. Must be PMS.

[Tennessee_Bob]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just through a monkey wrench in the engine, or leave it on an inlet cowling.

Ok....so, did they throw the wrench in prior to engine start or after start? If they threw a wrench in, it would cause the damage on start, and it would be significant enough that the pilots would notice it. If they left it on the cowling, it would be detected by the walk-around...Oh..wait..no..the pilots were in on it! They saw the wrench waiting to be ingested on start, and left it there. There was a time release glue holding it in place, and they knew that they had to delay the flight an hour so that the glue would let go just after take-off. Sorry. That doesn't work.

You're right. It was a stinger. They shot it down. That's all it could be...couldn't possibly be mechanical failure on an engine that was just short of having a major overhaul.

[Gimlet]

Chelsea is too busy causing meteor showers to bring down a plane in New York. Don't be silly.

[concerned about politics]

couldn't possibly be mechanical failure on an engine that was just short of having a major overhaul.

plane was just serviced 11/11/01.

[Nitro]

How are we supposed to keep a good conspiracy theory up in the air, if you are going to use logic?

[Tennessee_Bob]

I'll go you one better than being in bad turbulence, eno. I've had a jet engine come apart on me before. I've picked up crash sites where there was a catastrophic failure, and we could find all but the inlet fan module (three feet wide, weighing about 400lbs) after the crash. Seems that the there was a failure in the numbers 2 and 3 bearings and the torque was so great that the module was wrenched off the rest of the engine...shearing all one hundred and something bolts, connecting cables and everything else, and throwing the module through the fuselage of the F-15 the engine was installed in. The A/C flew on for about five more minutes before coming apart completely on the pilot.

Flash at the wingroot...ever seen how much debris an engine can throw out when it fails? If it shells out, you'll get a bright flash, and a lot of fire if it penetrates a fuel cell.

Wings fall off if you damage them (fragments will shear wing spars) and then you stress them. Oh, and these fragments...we're not talking little pieces here, we're talking large chunks of metal that weigh a lot...forty-fifty pounds...bigger than any shrapnel put out by missile.

[Tennessee_Bob]

plane was just serviced 11/11/01

Big difference in servicing a jet and performing an overhaul. Servicing a jet can be just adding oil and running a borescope through the ports to inspect it. A major overhaul (10,000 hours) means tearing the engine down and inspecting the components, repairing or replacing them, and rebuilding and testing the engine. Servicing is also emptying out the sewage tanks on the jet, checking hydraulics, etc.

When you put gas in your car, you're having it serviced. When you have the engine torn down and rebuilt, you're having it overhauled.

[MindBender26]

That is because, as Winston Churchill said, "I am a great man!"

(just :~)

[eno_]

I'm not saying it isn't possible this was an engine that failed catastrophically on it's own, I'm saying the odds of it happening in these times, in that place to that airline, on Veteran's Day, with W and the UNGA in town, from an airport with known security and corruption problems, and with minimal checked baggage screening in place seems like a really really unfortunate coincidence - or terrorism. If it had been an Air Brazil flight out of Mexico City two months from now, I might think different.

Neurotic behavior cuts both ways: there are people who assume it's a maximum conspiracy, and people who engage in wishful thinking. I recall seeing the double-deck freeway collapse on TV after the earthquake in the Bay Area with the announcer saying "there is no evidence yet people were killed" and I'm looking a road I know is bumper-to-bumper most of the time. I just think we are now looking at an act of terror.

Like the anthrax letters: it's possible it could be anyone with a grudge. But what are the chances the first victim's wife had met Atta to rent an apartment to him? What are the chances a post office in a heavily Arab part of NJ gets contaminated? What are the odds that Atta got it from an Iraqi agent in the Czech Republic versus all this being coincidental?

Hey, OJ is lucky enough to have the Heisman Trophy and a dead ex-wife. Could happen.

[Terrorista Nada]

b>F.O.D. kills (foreign object damage)

A simple monkey wrench left inside an engine air inlet cowling could have done this. F.A.A. will propose monkey wrenches are dangerous weapons and will confiscate all monkey wrenches from A&P (airframe and powerplant) mechanics.

[Terrorista Nada]

F.O.D. kills (foreign object damage)

A simple monkey wrench left inside an engine air inlet cowling could have done this. F.A.A. will propose monkey wrenches are dangerous weapons and will confiscate all monkey wrenches from A&P (airframe and powerplant) mechanics.

[brewcrew]

A simple monkey wrench left inside an engine air inlet cowling could have done this. F.A.A. will propose monkey wrenches are dangerous weapons and will confiscate all monkey wrenches from A&P (airframe and powerplant) mechanics.

There will be a new federal law implementing a 7-day waiting period on the purchase of monkey wrenches.

[Terrorista Nada]

So how do pilots see a monkey wrench laying in an air inlet cowling 15 feet over their head?

"First I heard a big explosion. Then I saw flames come out from behind the plane. And then a whole wing with the engine fell off." - Antonio Villela, a construction worker.

F.O.D. kills (foreign object damage)

You must work for the airlines. I'll bet it was another frayed wire in the belly fuel tank?

[KQQL]

To all:
Something is up at JFK.
TWA, Swiss Air and now AA blow up in the sky after taking off from JFK.
I would check the mechanics, to see if any have OBL connection.
Something smells fishey about this crash, after all,this
plane crashed in NYC 2 months from 9/11/2001.

[stands2reason]

Doncha know? Because it's Veteran's Day, American Airlines, et. al., it's actually impossible for there to be any mechanical breakdown whatsoever!

[DugwayDuke]

There's been an interview of an eyewitness claiming the tail separated prior to the wing/engines thats been posted on a couple of other threads. The eyewitness was located on a boat in Jamaca Bay short of the Rockaways. Collaborating this, MSNBC is running video of a large police boat (think tugboat size) hoisting a segment of the tail out of the bay. Hard to estimate size but the AA is intact, so 20-30 feet wouldn't be a bad estimate of segment size. Anchor guy says the video is from the Bay near the runway. Seems to indicate tail may have separated prior to engine/wing separation. Course, the engine could have blown sending fragments back into the tail.

[freeasinbeer]

And also, MSNBC anchor just stated that the A300 is incapable of dumping fuel. Any pilots on here confirm this? Their resident expert thinks that the eyewitness reports of fuel escaping from the jet are correct, but that the fuel was escaping from a hole that was created by some catastrophic event. As far as we can tell, the debris path STARTS in Jamaica Bay, where the tail section was found. Now why would only the very rear of the plane drop into the bay if the engine fell off?

[Oldeconomybuyer]

American Airlines passenger jet crashes after takeoff in New York; more than 250 feared dead
DIEGO IBARGUEN, Associated Press Writer
Monday, November 12, 2001
©2001 Associated Press

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2001/11/12/national1623EST0727.DTL

(11-12) 14:31 PST NEW YORK (AP) -- A jetliner en route to the Dominican Republic broke apart minutes after takeoff and crashed in a waterfront neighborhood Monday, engulfing homes in flames and sowing initial fears of a new terrorist atrocity. All 255 people aboard were killed, and at least six others were reported missing on the ground.

"It's looking like it's not a terrorist attack," said a senior Bush administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity. If there was an explosion on the plane -- and many bystanders heard one -- it was probably caused by a catastrophic mechanical failure, investigators said.

American Airlines Flight 587, a European-made Airbus A300, left Kennedy Airport at 9:14 a.m., 74 minutes late, lifting off into a clear blue sky. It nose-dived three minutes later into the Rockaway Beach section of Queens -- a middle-class neighborhood, 15 miles from Manhattan, that had lost scores of its people, firefighters and financial workers among them, in the World Trade Center catastrophe just two months ago.

"I just thought, `Oh, no, not again,"' said Milena Owens, who was putting up Thanksgiving decorations when she heard an explosion.

Furious orange flames towered above the treetops, and a plume of thick, black smoke could be seen miles away.

Authorities later found one of the two black boxes from the 13-year-old jet and said it would be examined for clues.

Saud Aziz, 38, said he was raking leaves in front of his home when he looked up, spotted the plane and saw a large chunk of a wing fall off. At that point, he said, the aircraft went into a spiraling dive and set the neighborhood on fire.

"We could feel the heat. The flames were intense," he said. "Even though it was burning, it was weird, because it was very quiet."

Other witnesses reported hearing an explosion and seeing an engine and other debris falling off the twin-engine jet as it came down.

An engine was found intact in a parking lot at a Texaco station, where it had missed the gas pumps by no more than 6 feet; neighbors ran to the scene with garden hoses to put out the fire. Part of a wing appeared to be in Jamaica Bay, just offshore, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said, and the plane's tail was pulled from the water.

"I don't believe there are any survivors at this point," Giuliani said. As of late afternoon, 240 bodies had been recovered, he said. Klieg lights -- the kind of lights used at ground zero at the Trade Center -- were brought in so recovery workers could work into the night.

At least six and perhaps as many as eight people, all adults, were reported missing on the ground, the mayor said. Four houses were destroyed, four were seriously damaged, and as many as a dozen others sustained lesser damage, Giuliani said.

"Anyone who was in those four houses that were directly hit by that fuselage, where that severe fire was, I don't think they're going to be alive," said Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen. Authorities were not certain that anyone was in those buildings.

Roberto Valentin, a Dominican ambassador at large, spoke through tears when he said he believed 90 percent of the passengers were Dominican. New York City has 455,000 Dominicans.

Relatives of passengers crowded Santo Domingo's airport, sobbing and grasping each other after hearing about the crash.

"Oh my God!" said Miriam Fajardo, crying after being told that her sister and three nephews were aboard. "I hadn't seen them in eight years. Now they're gone."

The rectory of St. Francis de Sales, one block from the crash site, was used as an emergency command center. Its pastor, Monsignor Martin Geraghty, was called away to bless bodies.

Firefighter Joe O'Brien accompanied the priest. The monsignor blessed about 20 bodies, which were being laid out on the street right in front of the crash site, O'Brien said.

"Right now they're just recovering bodies. The FBI is looking for evidence," he said. "And the priests are down there consoling firemen."

Thirty-five people were treated for injuries at the hospital -- mostly rescue workers, firefighters and police. All were hurt not in the crash but in the aftermath, with most of them suffering smoke inhalation.

The city, which was already on high alert because of the Trade Center catastrophe in lower Manhattan, reacted immediately. Fighter jets patrolled the skies; bridges, tunnels and all three major airports were closed for a time; the Empire State Building was evacuated.

"People should remain calm," Giuliani said. "We're just being tested one more time, and we're going to pass this test, too."

In Washington, President Bush met with advisers, seeking details of the crash. A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said intelligence agencies, the FBI and the Federal Aviation Administration were reviewing recent intelligence for signs that terrorism was involved.

But White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said there were no "unusual communications" from the cockpit. And a senior administration official said that no threats against airplanes had been received.

Gov. George Pataki said the pilot dumped fuel in Jamaica Bay before the plane went down -- indicating the crew knew the jet was in trouble.

The National Transportation Safety Board was designated the lead agency in the investigation, signaling that authorities have no information other than that a mechanical malfunction -- and not a terrorist attack -- brought down the plane.

A law enforcement source at the scene told The Associated Press that the likelihood of a mechanical problem stemmed from the fact that flames were seen shooting out of the left engine and that witnesses reported the plane had difficulty climbing and was banking to the left.

Jet engines have been known to break up catastrophically, throwing shrapnel into a plane. In 1989, for example, United Airlines DC-10 crashed in Sioux City, Iowa, killing 112, after the metal hub that holds the engine's fan blades shattered and ruptured the jet's hydraulic lines.

Jennifer Rivara said she was looking out a window from her home about five blocks from Monday's crash. "I saw pieces falling out of the sky," she said. "And then I looked over to my left and I saw this huge fireball, and the next thing I know, I hear this big rumbling sound. I ran to the door and all I saw was big black smoke."

The plane was lying on top of about 12 homes, said Ed Williams, community liaison for Rep. Gregory Meeks.

Giuliani said his first thought upon hearing about the crash was "`Oh, my God.' I just passed the church in which I've been to, I think, 10 funerals here. Rockaway was particularly hard hit" in the Trade Center disaster, he said.

The mayor went to an airport hotel where hundreds of family members of those on board the plane had assembled; he led them in a moment of silent prayer.

"This is a horrible, horrible day," the governor told them.

The Trade Center was destroyed by two Boeing 767s hijacked out of Boston's Logan Airport. One of the planes was operated by American, the other by United.

Jackie Weiss, 50, a secretary at Rockaway High School, said: "I'm really devastated. My own son was telling me, when I was upset by the World Trade Center, `But you didn't lose any family members.' But seeing something like this ... I feel the world is coming to an end."

©2001 Associated Press  

[Tennessee_Bob]

Ahh, I think I get it now. When someone is using logic, and is making sense, you cast aspersions on them.

Actually, no, I don't work for an airline. I used to be in the Air Force. I spent ten years as a jet engine mechanic on the F-15 and the F-16 as my primary airframe. I helped with the Field Service Evaluation on the F100-PW-220 and the 229, picked up numerous aircraft that pilots managed to lose, and worked in several crash investigations. So, now that we know a little bit more about my background, how long were you working in jet engine maintenance?

Ok. So they left a wrench in the cowling, fifteen feet above the pilot's head. That implies that the wrench is inside the nacelle, away from the airflow. The lower lip of the intake is within the pilot's view. So, now they have this wrench inside the nacelle, where the pilot can't see it on inspection. This means that it is out of the primary gaspath, and since the lip of the compressor is sealed to the front of the nacelle, that means the wrench is stuck inside...or did they rig a trap door that would suddenly drop the wrench into the airflow, allowing it to be ingested?

Now, assuming that there was no trap door, and the wrench was loose in the flowpath, what kept it from being ingested on engine start? I've seen items get ingested before at 75% power on an engine with lower thrust ratings than these. Once the item is ingested, it doesn't just sit there, damage begins immediately, starting at the inlet fan, and working its way back through the compressor. Big shards would get caught up against the combustion chamber and fuel nozzles. Smaller bits of debris would work their way through and shell out the turbine...now, this would be on the start, not at taxi or take off. So now the pilots are taxiing out with a FODded engine, and despite the noise, vibration and smoke, as well as the FTIT (Fan Turbine Inlet Temperature) and EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) gauges going nuts in the cockpit, they elect to take off anyways.

It's all starting to make sense now.....

[Tennessee_Bob]

One of the engines was two hundred hours short of a major overhaul. Mechanical devices fail short of their assigned MTBFs. Sometimes, they run forever and sometimes they fall apart. I'd like to say that I'm amazed at how quickly the conspiracies are coming out...but I'm not. I'm amazed at the complex twists and turns that people are going through in order to make it a conspiracy.