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To: Aquinasfan
People testify with absolute sincerity (and even corroborating witnesses) to everything from Abominable snowmen, alternate lives, and even alien abduction.

You'll pardon me if I remain skeptical.

102 posted on 11/11/2001 3:35:47 AM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
And people of sincere faith can tell the difference.

Can you?

106 posted on 11/11/2001 8:41:54 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: OWK
In the Catholic Church, a miracle is defined as a naturally occuring event that has no natural explanation.

For example, an unexplained healing is regarded as a miracle. So would be resurrection from the dead. But miracles are generally regarded as tangential to one's faith life.

Why? Well, one reason is because it is pretty easy for someone who adheres axiomatically to materialist philosophy to rationalize any miracle or supernatural with a natural explanation. For example, an atheist might believe that it is impossible to levitate, so would explain any report of a levitation as a lie or misunderstanding.

But what if an atheist witnessed a levitation? Even then, the atheist could believe that he halucinated. Or sometime later come to believe that his memory was faulty. So even first-hand observation might not suffice.

That's why I like to point to the Shroud of Turin as an example of the supernatural to hardened skeptics. Here we have a natural phenomenon, an image on a cloth, but lacking a natural explanation. Moreover, the phenomenon is persistent, it has existed for years, and has been subjected to endless, rigorous scientific investigation. It's impossible to explain in materialist terms. Which explains why many atheistic or agnostic scientists who have examined the cloth have converted.

107 posted on 11/11/2001 8:44:19 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: OWK; Aquinasfan; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; cajunjim1963; sunny
Back in the 1860's men crept into caves in North Georgia and Alabama, and mixed potions, reciting to each other the 'spells' to make the potions most powerful. Then, after drying these potions sufficiently, they rolled the potions up in paper twists. After rolling thousands and thousands of these portions of potions, the paper twists were carried by mule and wagon ... to battlefields, where the potion portions were used to end the lives of human beings.

Magic? Most definitely, and tens of thousands set out to stop the practice. Many would protest, "NO! That's not magic!" But if the same activity were undertaken by two or three men somehow transported back to the days of clubs and stone weapons, the ones that would be slaughtered by the potion portions properly plied, would plop the play in the magic category very quickly, and rightly so, for it is magic to them that perish.

Supercilious example? I don't think so ... it is the wordy affirmation of the notion that magic is advanced technology misunderstood. Is that applicable here? Only if one truly wishes to keep the mind open to the range of perceptiona nd knowledge not at present accessible to we technocratically inclined.

It is fundamental to Judeo-Christian development that the supernatural is possible. What is supernatural? By definition, merely that which is beyond the current natural. We have a great example of the principle in Moses and Pharoah and the 'miracles' duplicated by the Egyptian 'sorcerers'. It is assumed in scriptures that Moses cast the staff down and supernatural power from someone/something changed it into a serpent. when the Egyptian 'wisedudes' duplicated the feat to Pharoah's satisfaction (and it is important to note that he had a vital stake in accuracy of perception), Moses and his demands were dismissed.

Only when the last and much more frightening feat was performed did Pharoah realize his sorcerers were mortal but the message brought by Moses was coming from an Immortal. When the Angel swept into Egypt and took the first born, except where the blood was applied to the doorpost and lintel of the houses, then Pharoah relented. Oddly, after the escape was accomplished, even the haughty pride of Pharoah could not allow the God of Creation the position only moments before acceded to ... Pharoah was so mad at God, he sent his army after the freed slaves, an army which was consumed in yet another 'supernatural' event.

So, for those of you who've given this screed the courtesy of a full read, what is the point? Namely, whether there is actual magical manipulation of the spacetime physical realm or not, the lessons most important lie outside the actual physical manipulations. As such, the Potter series function nobly to inspire thought and wonder in kids. But such inspiration must be then channeled to the wise growth of the individual soul, else the forces not in the physical realm will reach to pervert the lessons, just as something whispering in Pharoah's ear perverted the lesson and led to the destruction of his army!

The ultimate threat perceived in the Potter series comes from the fear that once incited to wonder, the parents will be lacking in their proper responsibility to channel the wonder.

Frankly, the scenes described in Judeo-Christian scriptures are far more powerful for the direction of the soul/spirit, if applied responsibly. My son was deeply into D&D growing up, but he understood that the incident of handwriting on the wall of Belshazzar's palace was more real than the imagined powers and influence he and his friends conjured in their games, because I and his mother taught him so and now he applies those lessons in his life, in bringing up my precious granddaughter.

Discernment is a parental responsibility to develop. It will not happen as it is intended unless the parents raise up the child in the way that it should go, such that when old they will not depart from it.

Rowlings has opened doors that the mire of TV and Hollywierd would never be able to open; now, it is up to the parents of the children to take their responsibility in channeling the awakened wonder, rather than trying to prevent the awakening, utilize it to teach the young! If you don't, my novels, written for the adults so that they can confront some of the deeper notions of the human/heaven paradigm, will molder in obscurity. Rowlings writes of spells and Wizards. I write of a secret garden and a Tree of Immortality. Harry confronts dark witches and evil wizards; my characters confront the greed and powerhunger of men, and resist the temptations of real physical attraction between men and women. If the world becomes too 'sophisticated' such resistence of real physical temptations will be passe, and the human race will sink into the oblivion of self-gratification over living in and with, overcoming reality, the reality of human frailty.

110 posted on 11/11/2001 11:08:50 AM PST by MHGinTN
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