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To: boris
Ah, Guanilo, inspired and far more deeply educated men than currently popular ideology believe can exist have bequeathed myriads of eloquently crafted reasons for opening our minds to the actuality of God.

Perhaps their ‘arguments’ are not as foolish as we are taught, but instead, our minds, so clearly focused upon the mechanical (but for good reason), have lost sight of the principle.

In your wonderfully prescient critique of my as yet unproposed ontological argument perhaps the flaw in the ointment is the presupposition of the flaw, however popular such a suppostion may be [since Kant].

However I stand by my now explicit assertion: That God indeed is that than which nothing greater can be conceived. Equally, I accept your apt formulation of my previously unstated postition: That God is a being greater than which none other can exist. And what then logically follows from these, however formulated, is that the greatest existence is not merely potential, or merely actual, but in fact must be both.

We live in an age were directness is more a virtue. So let me be simpler:

God is being itself. That is, God is existence itself. That is why none greater is conceivable. Get it? [This is why I don't depend upon an evolutionary view of God, even though I'd hold ‘God’ to be the ultimate effect of such a process.]

Unfortunately, in times past, one couldn't be so direct. Why? Because of a far more potent critique of the ontological argument's real basis: If by the term ‘God’ one means existence in itself, then ‘God’ must be so pan-theistically material and so universally mundane as to be irrelevant. Or put another way, the fool says in his heart, "God may be granted to be ‘being’, existence itself, but clearly then, ‘God’ would be dead, for so clearly mechanical and lifeless is the bleak realm we inhabit".

Ah, Death, what sting! You've taken our very God away! But wait. What is that sound? The dead stone! Rolled away! And who stands there but the Light, so clearly shining, saying this: "I am Life, and Being, and Existence, and in Me there is no death, non-being or non-existence. So that which is not ***in*** Me is ***not*** to the exact ***degree*** in which it is ***not*** in Me [ie Being].

Or put even more bluntly: God is only that which exists to the degree to which it actually exists. Another formulation is to say that God is ‘integrity’. Or that God is ‘unity’ [not uniformity!].

Interestingly, the ***actual*** human (ie subjective) ***experience*** of ‘being’ or ‘unity’ or ‘integrity’ is what we call ‘love’. But that is another subject.

Another very related subject is to show the reason why ‘truth’, and ‘goodness’, and ‘beauty’, and most other positive qualities have for so long been attributed to ‘God’. Clearly these are all properties of what we would call ‘integrity’ or the actual being of a thing, as opposed to the lack of being, or ‘dis-integration’, or lack of existence of any given thing. But I won't raise that here.

boris, you are clearly a very effective man of science. Most scientists these days ***will not*** [not "cannot"] conceive of any of these issues, seeing only the emptiness of space in these vast issues rather than the potent ground of all their relatively unexamined suppositions about reality, thought, logic, number and measurment. But just as for many, if not most of the great founders of modern science, unique insight and breakthrough awaits those willing to examine the exterior of our gilded box.
40 posted on 11/10/2001 7:30:54 PM PST by tim politicus
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To: tim politicus
You'd fail the exam.

Hint: the failure of this classic argument is "equivocation".

--Boris

42 posted on 11/10/2001 7:47:14 PM PST by boris
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