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MCSEs: We are all idiots
Myelabs.com ^ | 11/5/01 11:44:36 AM | Editorial Staff

Posted on 11/06/2001 7:11:47 PM PST by Justa

MCSEs: We are all idiots
Date:11/5/01 11:44:36 AM

As we watch our economy slide effortlessly down the road to a solid recession

Introduction:

    As we watch our economy slide effortlessly down the road to a solid recession, the IT and airline industries are fiercely competing for the coveted 'most jobs cut' award.  As a response to this and to last year's enormous .com bust, technical institutes, universities, community colleges and seminars that made it their mission, starting a few years ago, to quickly and efficiently pour additional 'qualified' people into the then undermanned  and rapidly expanding IT workforce have come to the realization that it is time to slow their efforts and look for alternative courses and programs to pursue.  Right?  Not one bit.  I wouldn't go as far as to say that the opposite is happening, but let's put it this way, if you haven't seen an ITT Technical Institute commercial in recent weeks praising the value and quality of their networking and other IT courses and assuring the promise of a bright future for those who join these programs, you don't have TV.

    One of the largest issues negatively affecting the health of the today's IT industry is the continued pursuit of failed, and increasingly meaningless certification programs, the most dangerous one of all being Microsoft's MCSE certification.  And since there are too many IT certifications out there to spend time evaluating the true value of each one, let's focus on Microsoft's popular MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer) certification since it has in fact managed to process over 400,000 people into MCSE in the last few years.  For those who are not familiar with this program, it is in short a certification obtained by passing 6 or 7 exams related to computer networking using Microsoft's popular Windows NT or Windows 2000 operating systems and is aimed to enable MCSEs to design, install, support and troubleshoot information systems based on Microsoft Corp. software.  There are no other requirements besides passing the exams, no college level credits required, no proof of class attendance. 

    Just to remove the element of surprise, I intend, in the following article to do my best to expose the misinformation and straight lies that keep the MCSE certification process from being remodeled into an efficient program that could truly benefit the IT industry and its customers instead of making a mockery out of both.  How can I be so cruel as to attempt to dash the hopes of those poor souls who are currently on page 3 of their networking essentials book?  Well, there's an MCSE 'diploma' with my name on it at home, somewhere, and the only thing I really feel certified as is an idiot for having wasted the money to acquire it.    

Background:

    Certifications are not a new concept, they have been around in fields such the automotive industry for many years, but the IT certifications rose to fame very quickly 4 or 5 years ago when the industry was in dire need of a large and immediate input of 'qualified' employees and did not have the patience or possibility of waiting for those working on 4-year degrees to fill the various positions that were opening at an alarming rate in the technology field.  The certification process therefore enabled the industry to expect a large supply of potential employees who learned their skills in a matter of a few months or less instead of the years it took for college grads to enter the market.  Besides the benefit of a quickly trained supply of fresh employees, new certifications could also be quickly created and existing ones modified according to the latest industry developments something which is just not possible with standard 4 year college curriculums.  As a result, those who sought there certifications were thought to be more up to speed on the very latest technologies as opposed to college grads who started their computer education with basic and largely archaic skills and worked their way up to more modern technologies, building a much deeper understanding and greater knowledge along the way.  As far as those who were already employed in the industry are concerned, certifications were a relatively easy way for their employers to encourage them to learn new skills to keep up with ever changing technologies and be presented with proof that the classes they provided their employees with were taken seriously enough for them to pass the exams.

How popular are Microsoft's various certifications?

Microsoft Certified Technical Education Centers are spreading at an alarming rate.
If you're thinking about taking your MCSE certification course in Namibia but are worried that because your country's population size barely exceeds that of Detroit's you might not find a Microsoft Certified school or testing center, don't worry, you'll find your local Microsoft Certified academy's contact information on the right. 

Information Technology Learning Academy
Windhoek, Namibia  NAM
(61) 223-763

Testing Center:
INSTITUTE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
79 HOSEA KUTAKO DRIVE
WINDHOEK, 
264 61 253 141

The current situation:

A little over a year ago, I picked up a book entitled "SQL in 10 Minutes" (published by SAMS in 2000), you could read it over and over again for a solid decade and not know SQL at all, but it's good for a couple of laughs here and there.  For those of you who don't know what SQL is, the title of this book is equivalent to something on the order of  "How to landscape your yard if you don't have one".  Unfortunately, the title of this book reflects to a large degree the much abused sense of urgency that has rendered programs like the MCSE certification simply incapable of truly assuring employers and employees alike that they have indeed learned the skill sets supposedly required to pass the exams, the rush to get it done simply does not push students to learn any more than they must to pass the exams.

But how much did the industry as a whole suffer from this massive input of low quality labor?

I'm not sure whether Microsoft and all of the other companies who benefit from the MCSE program and desperately want to keep it going realize it or not, but they are actually doing a great disservice to not only those who wish to work in the IT industry and those who already do but also to the businesses that hire these people.  How did this certification frenzy hurt the industry you ask?  Well, an impressive number of people whose extensive hands on computing experience allowed them not much more than to easily dominate their friends in Quake, were hired to participate in overseeing corporate networks after completing their MCSE certifications in a few weeks.  The biggest backlash of this is a widespread lack of proper security planning and implementation over much of the internet:

"IT professionals and trainers are blaming insufficient security training offered under the nationwide Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer program for contributing to the spread of "Code Red" and other damaging viruses."
Dan Verton, CNN, August 14, 2001

The biggest mistake made by both those who relied on getting certified to find work and those who did the hiring was confusing the real meaning of the certification, being certified meant and still means that a person managed to pass some relatively simple exams, nothing more, it does not in any way assure a certain level of expertise or experience.

The result of this madness?

The number of unemployed MCSEs should soon rival with the number of the employed variety.  The number of expensive mistakes made by inexperienced, unknowledgeable and poorly trained MCSEs is unimaginable.  The cost in terms of lost productivity, data loss, and other damage resulting from these employees' mistakes will probably soon warrant its own heading on corporate balance sheets. 

The result of having over 400,000 MCSEs in the United States:
The following is a comparison of the number of job listings for the Los Angeles area and under different skill headings from computerjobs.com (10/02/01)
Heading: # of Jobs Listed:
MCSE 4
Java 38
Cobol 20
DB2 18
Some additional cheery numbers:
Searches for the keyword MCSE in the employment sections of various newspapers and online job listing sites for the San Diego/LA area on 10/02/01:
Source: # of hits:
Union Tribune (San Diego's main publication) 2
Monster.com 3
Dice.com 2
Hotjobs.com 2
The lack of new positions for MCSEs as compared to those knowledgeable in both current technologies such as Java and even legacy technologies such as Cobol or DB2 goes a long way to show that the not only is the MCSE not all that impressive, but also that nearly half a million MCSEs must be plenty enough.
And back for more certifications we go...
MCSE / MCSE+I CCNA or higher Frame Relay / ATM knowledge (DLCI, PVC structures and designs) AMI-D4/B8ZS-esF Channelized / Non-Channelized knowledge Sniffer / Radcom LAN/WAN / VoIP Analyzers HP Open View / Cisco Works / Cajun View / NetIQ Chariot IP-Based

(Computerjobs.com) List of required skills for a recently advertised $40K/yr position.

What keeps the failed and overcrowded MCSE certification program going?:

How can a program so heavily flawed, so void of real value, and so expensive survive?

While unemployment in the IT sector grows faster than we can keep track of it, while ineffective certification programs, such as the MCSE cert., are increasingly being recognized for what they really are and as companies are starting to realize the losses they suffer from hiring poorly trained certification-brandishing applicants, MCSE classes are packed.

Much of the reason for this is the incredible volume of propaganda that surrounds this program and others like it, all parties involved that stand to profit from the continuation of this madness keep applying pressure to avoid serious interruptions to the certification frenzy.  

Microsoft and co.:

It is certain that Microsoft uses their many certification programs as tools to lock customers into its specific products and platforms, this is also true of Novell, Oracle and Cisco of course.  This effect comes directly into play when companies seeking to upgrade existing servers and workstations or to add new systems, ask for their IT staff's advice as to operating system and other hardware choices, most employees undoubtedly select whatever platform they are either familiar with or certified to manage.

Is Microsoft responding to the current lack of opportunity in the IT industry since its certifications and the rush to qualify a staggering number of people significantly contributed to the problem? 
And is Microsoft making the required changes to prevent people who are not qualified, not experienced or who have simply not bothered to study from passing the exams and receiving their certifications anyway?
No.  There seems to be no move to try and limit the number of centers Microsoft certifies to teach these classes, and there seems to be no intention on Microsoft's part to either expand on the requirements for receiving the certification or to increase the difficulty and change the format of the tests themselves. 

A short-lived sense of relief came over me when I noticed that Microsoft had added yet another certification to their repertoire, the MCSA, which might have refuted everything I've just said if it were a much more intensive and demanding revision of the MCSE certification as it might have resulted in a reasonable number of better trained and qualified people filling the positions that still exist in this IT mess, but in fact, it's quite the opposite, a less demanding program with fewer exams and therefore a greater output of half-qualified and largely inexperienced future job seekers... a fantastic idea.

Testing centers:

Testing centers, which have been established in locations ranging from technical schools to flight schools (114 centers in California), stand to lose a considerable steady source of income if the continuous flow of certification seekers somehow diminished.  The majority of the 400,000+ MCSEs out there have spent $100 on each of the 6 or 7 exams required to obtain their certification, that translates into a total of  over $240 million which does not take into account the other 100s of thousands of people who took tests to accomplish certifications such as MCP, CCNA, MCSD, CNE, CNA...

Exam prep. material, Transcender is smiling from ear to ear. 

A DVD-ROM might have the capacity to hold the list of publications which include the word "MCSE" in their titles.  But we'll leave publishers alone after having simply said that there are hundreds if not thousands of books published with the only and specific purpose of preparing students to pass the MCSE exams, and the number of copies sold must be quite impressive indeed.

Let's instead focus on an interesting and fortunate company in the exam prep. area, the Transcender Corporation.
Transcender pretty much has a monopoly on the practice test (or mock exam) industry when it comes to many certifications, including the MCSE.  The practice tests provided are shockingly similar to the actual tests, right down to the format and questions themselves, and cost between $99 and $198 each with most costing $149.  The popularity of these practice tests is quite impressive, and because students realize that they are extremely effective, Transcender stands to potentially pocket around $800 to $900 from each student.
The downside for employers and employees alike is that someone who spends enough time (a few days) practicing these tests in order to pretty much memorize the questions and answers, will more than likely pass the actual exam whether he or she has bothered to open a book or has any skills or knowledge on the topic at all.  
Whether the fact that so many unqualified people manage to obtain their certifications in this manner should be blamed on Transcender, Microsoft or anyone at all, the result is the same, the MCSE certification loses much of its value in the eyes of both employers and those certified, as it should.

Online job listing services:

Job listing sites rely not only on job postings (the volume of which has tremendously diminished) for their income, but also on job seekers' visits in order to justify their banner prices to advertisers.  Newly certified and inexperienced applicants provide these sites with a healthy traffic volume and in response to the current size of the unemployed IT workers pool, Monster.com has recently launched an advertising campaign in order to draw some traffic to their site from the crowd of 'I can't believe I made a mistake this large' burger-flipping MCSEs out there.  These advertising campaigns, not only bring job seekers in for a visit, but also send the wrong message to those who are considering a move from their current industry to the IT sector by giving them the impression that these sites are just overflowing with opportunities, nothing could be further from the truth.

Job seekers:

Those who have taken and passed the exams required to receive their MCSE certification and who relied and still rely on it to open doors for them despite their utter lack of previous experience or even solid understanding of the topics they were tested on are quite happy with the way the MCSE requirements and exams are currently structured.  Many of them, along with the schools that taught them, frowned at Microsoft's attempt to discourage others from following in their footsteps by switching from straight forward multiple choice exams to an adaptive format that respond to correct answers by asking tougher questions and vice versa.  The simplicity of the exams, the ability to pass them by simply practicing on or memorizing mock tests, and the large demand for IT personnel up to about 2 years ago combined with the disproportionately high salaries enjoyed in the IT industry at that time made it all too attractive an offer to resist, even for those who weren't all that motivated by the industry as a whole.

Certified and non-certified training centers:

And then of course, there are the variety of technical education centers founded around nothing else but teaching classes aimed at helping students pass the exams required to obtain various certifications.  This very specialized industry racks in an impressive amount of money and the volume of misinformation they feed to their existing and prospective students would be amusing if it didn't rob so many of them out of their money to no avail.  Having taught over 400,000+ MCSEs alone in the last few years, this industry has grown at an alarming rate, between technical colleges, specialized training facilities, boot camp organizations and all the way up to state and private colleges and universities, the income derived from charging students or their employers between $2,000 and $10,000 each for MCSE certification classes translates into revenues in the $800 million to $4 billion range, and this over last 5 years at the most, since the fever began.  What is the standard response received by disillusioned recently certified students who have either not found work or not received any type of raise or promotion from their certification?  More certifications.  And although this eventually might lead to a skilled workforce of people who actually stick to it instead of calling it quits, it isn't for that reason that schools recommend this approach of accumulating a bag full of certifications.

The most alarming example of just how much money was flat out stolen from individuals and companies who fell victim to the MCSE disaster is the concept of the MCSE 'boot camp'.

MCSE boot camps: theft in its purest form.
The concept of the MCSE boot camp is just baffling.  For an employer or an individual to see some kind of value in learning what for many is a completely new skill or even a chance at a new career in 12 days is just disappointing.  The mere idea that you can obtain a supposedly difficult certification in that amount of time devalues it tremendously.
A couple of exams, a few long walks on the beach and $7000 later they send you home with your MCSE and a complimentary oatmeal cookie.
If you listen carefully at night, you can hear the boot camp 'graduates' or their employers pulling their hair out slowly to maximize the pain.
Excerpt from MCSEclasses.com:
"Learn your MCSE material at many vacation destinations throughout the country! MCSE Boot Camps and MCDBA Boot Camps run for 12 days (mornings-evenings with afternoons off in national parks and beaches so you can enjoy the day)!" Price: $6495, airfare and lodging included.
A few less and more expensive choices:
Company # Days Hotel
Incl.
 Price 
HOTT 15 YES  $4485 
Ameriteach 12 NO  $7495 
CED Solutions 14 YES  $6495 
Global Knowledge 14 NO  $8995 
Northwest Computer Training 13 YES  $6599 
The Training Camp 12 YES  $7495 
New Horizons 15 NO  $6375 

The training center industry has in fact grown so large, that it is now increasingly hiring a larger percentage of the people it itself has trained than most other industries!  ITT Technical Institute recently ran the ad below seeking to fill an instructor position, it was 1 out of a total of 4 ads under the MCSE heading in the Los Angeles section of computerjobs.com.


CNS Instructor


Looking for a position that will give you the opportunity to enhance the lives of others? We truly believe that the future of our nation's workforce is being developed right here and are looking for people who would like to be part of the team building this future ... 

Required Skills:
3 years of exp. in systems administration, network architecture, GUI, NT, TCP/IP, Linux, LAN/WAN, or Novell and a bachelor's degree, we would like to hear from you. An MCSE, MCP, CNE, CCNA, CCNP, and/or CNA is desirable

ITT Technical Institute Torrance, CA Full Time 11/1/2001

Employers:

Probably most disappointing of all, is the fact that employers also fall victim to the certification hysteria, and those who know quite well how over glorified the program is are no exception.  Since the program's inception, companies who realized that it was often exploited by inexperienced applicants seeking to get in the door routinely tested these applicants through short oral or written quizzes to try and weed out the more obvious impostors, but even those who are convinced of the program's lack of real value are more than happy to advertise their staff's various certifications in order to secure business for themselves.  Just as nationwide automotive maintenance and repair chains regularly boast that all of their mechanics are ASE certified, so do large technical support and other IT consulting firms when it comes to their employees' MCSE and other certifications.  This fact forces companies in that sector, whether they believe in the certification process or see it for what it is, to send many of their employees to acquire these certifications in order to instill some false sense of confidence in their customers' minds.  This behavior gives the certification frenzy cycle some additional momentum, and manages to convince job seekers that there indeed is some real value to the MCSE program.

Conclusion:

Obtaining an MCSE certification does not have to be a meaningless endeavor, and there are those who go through the process for the explicit purpose of learning the material they need to be familiar with instead of simply trying to pass the exams as soon as possible.  In that sense, the MCSE certification can be a positive step forward for those who truly wish to have it be just that and who recognize that they will have to learn more on their own than that which is required to pass the exams.  However, you can't have a program be successful and meaningful and warrant the creation of a multi-billion dollar industry, if it results in the certification of people who may have actually made an effort to learn something and of others who just aimed at passing a handful of exams to get it behind them.  This is the basic flaw of the MCSE certification process, the ease with which it can be be taken advantage of by some diminishes its overall value and devalues the efforts of those who take the program seriously, this is why a complete restructuring of the program and of its requirements is not only a good idea, but is actually owed to those who wish to join it for the right reasons.

In the minds of many employers and MCSEs, the certification has become nothing short of a joke with the many parties profiting from it trying to keep the laughter down and therefore the backing needed to incite a thorough reexamination of the program in order to turn it into what is was originally supposed to be, and never was, simply isn't there.  After all, I too believe that the program was originally supposed to result in individuals being certified as people who have actually acquired some solid, thorough and meaningful knowledge of a particular product or service (in this case, Microsoft's Windows NT or 2000 based networking technologies).

The best possible way to get out of this mess is to discourage those who are not truly committed to learning the skills required to do the job they are supposed to be training for.  And the only way to do this is to rebuild the MCSE program from scratch, no part of its current format should survive this revision except for the original concept which I hope was based around correctly and meaningfully teaching the skills needed by those who desire to enter the IT industry's networking field and certifying their knowledge by requiring that they pass a series of rigorous examinations after having spent a required amount of class time, and having covered specific topics, in certified training centers and universities.

Instead of this restructuring, we seem to be rapidly heading for a situation where more total income will be generated by training, testing and advertising to MCSE certified and certification bound individuals than employers stand to profit from the hiring of these people as a whole, and as ridiculous and illogical as that may sound, the propaganda generated by the variety of individuals and companies that stand to gain from such a situation is loud enough to keep the silliness going for a while yet.

Is there any good news you ask?  Of course there is, the Silicon Valley housing shortage problem has improved considerably, and if you decide to move to the area I'm convinced that your realtor will throw in a couple of MCSEs to paint the place.

 
[Embedding used to support tables]


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial
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1 posted on 11/06/2001 7:11:49 PM PST by Justa
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To: Justa
So, are you Linux certified yet?
2 posted on 11/06/2001 7:18:54 PM PST by relee
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To: Justa
I don't know what to tell you in less tha 15 pages.
3 posted on 11/06/2001 7:27:28 PM PST by RLK
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To: Justa; Bush2000; marajade; Dominic Harr
Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?
4 posted on 11/06/2001 7:30:52 PM PST by ikka
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To: Justa
Luckily I have my A+ certification, so the world is my oyster!
5 posted on 11/06/2001 7:33:13 PM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: relee; Bitwhacker
When you telephone interview a unix geek, and hear typing in the background, he's reading man pages. Give him an A for effort, and a C for knowledge.

/john

6 posted on 11/06/2001 7:42:15 PM PST by JRandomFreeper
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To: ikka
Here's some advice based on my previous life as a systems programmer.

Learn SQL and database systems.

Most major business applications are somehow involved with a database. The various hot languages and applications come and go, but databases live on. 20 years ago there was a big demand for database experts, today there is a demand for database experts, and for as far as anyone can see there will be a demand for database experts.

Different database systems often have their own host language, but almost all of them can be accessed via SQL. Its a default language, and you're expected to know it if you are working with databases.

7 posted on 11/06/2001 7:42:40 PM PST by Brookhaven
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To: Brookhaven
Different database systems often have their own host language, but almost all of them can be accessed via SQL. Its a default language, and you're expected to know it if you are working with databases.

That IS good advice. I know that an MCSE is not for me (I do Linux and OpenBSD as much as I can). I have found that the ability to do SQL has really paid off in my consulting. I do some database work as part of ZillNet and it is a distinct advantage.

8 posted on 11/06/2001 7:47:02 PM PST by ikka
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To: ikka
Bump for thoughts or comments. Are MCSEs worth it?

It depends primarily upon who you're working with. Despite what Justa says (and since his focus is Linux, I'd take his comments with a serious grain of salt), there are a number of companies that require a MCSE. But a certain number are balking at paying the bill for MCSE certification -- not because it isn't worthwhile but -- because there are a large number of MCSEs already in the job pool and they can presumably save money on training costs. Bottom line: A better bet is a BSCS/MSCS degree. But if you want to learn the technologies, a MCSE is a good way to go. At least it has breadth.

Linux certification?!? What the hell is that?!?
9 posted on 11/06/2001 7:53:13 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000; johnrob
Linux certification is a trial by fire involving dead chickens, bondage, and high-explosives. If you survive, you are either certified or certifiable.

I believe that FR is running on a Linux system/systems. I understand JohnRob is quite certified at this point. Especially after this morning. GRIN!

/john

10 posted on 11/06/2001 8:02:26 PM PST by JRandomFreeper
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To: relee
I'm working with Linux now. I won't be ready for any certification until atleast the Spring and I also want to know which distro wins the Desktop race to divert a respectable portion of Windows users to Linux.

Companies just don't have the time and money now to retrain employees on Linux. Imo when a stable Linux distro maps closely to '98 and supports legacy DOS programs a lot of companies will switch over. Linux Needs one distro to divert the '98/XP user stream, then *Nixers can quabble over which Linux distro. is 'the best'. Currently, I'm betting on Mandrake will get there first, and I dual boot 8.1 alongside '98 and XPpro.

Studying Linux is like choosing to learn DOS or NT4 -or both. Imo, one should learn both the language and the GUI so he can troubleshoot the GUI. At this time which Linux Distro to follow is still highly debatable. Here's a good rundown on the distros.

Right now I have A+, MCP2000 and Network+ and stil can't get a job locally in the field. Two weeks ago I lost out on a great job to an MCSE because they were migrating from NT4 to 2000. They kept asking if I'd be willing to get the MCSE and I said 'no way, not interested' because of many of the reasons cited in the article. Jeeze, if I'd known they had an MCSE in line I would have told them 'why MCSEs suck'. Famous quotes from MCSEs: "You can't run 2000 Server over Cat3, you'll have to rewire [a 6-building site]" and "the first thing you have to do is install [enter multi-thousand $$$ hardware and MS products here]".

MCSEs are not trained as managers of MS products as much as they are trained as marketers of MS products.

11 posted on 11/06/2001 8:06:04 PM PST by Justa
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To: ikka
1. He sounds like an unemployed MCSE to me.

2. Contrary to his point about 4 year degrees, (and I have one) many CS grads I've met don't know beans about computers. In one instance, a Computer Science grad pointed to a memory stick inside a PC I was working on and asked what it was. He then asked me to point out the processor. I spent over a year in a CS program before I realized it would be my senior year before I gained any knowledge of current languages or systems. I tremendous waste of time in my opinion - go for the business degree instead.

3. I've spent four years working in the IT field after having a hobbyist interest for more than ten. My MCSE wasn't worth much in the beginning, and I would have been shocked to have any employer turn me loose on their network without oversight. But I knew enough of the basics to ask the right questions and my skill level has grown with experience. Today, I make a very good living and work doing something I love to do.

4. There are good schools and bad schools. Its up to the student to make a wise choice. There's also been a lot of hype about what a new MCSE will make. Sure, there have been people who got the cert and talked their way into a sixty grand job, but for most 40k is more like it as a starting point. When you consider what a four year degree would cost , versus an eight week training course plus the year of studying and testing it takes the average MCSE student to obtain certification, I'd say its a pretty darn good return on your money. I've invested close to $10,000 in training, and it was the best money I've ever spent.

5. There may be a better way to build a competent work force, but I can't think of one. My Dad went to night school back in the 50's in order to get a better job in the machine shop. Later, his friends came to him and basically said, "If you'll get me a job in the shop I'll go to school." His reply was that they should make the investment in training and then look for the payoff. That's the same thing most new MCSE's do, and as a result the IT industry a pool of trainable, motivated people ready for entry level networking jobs.

12 posted on 11/06/2001 8:16:53 PM PST by Not_Who_U_Think
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To: Justa
Some additional cheery numbers:
Hey, no fair!

Dude. This too shall pass. Soon there'll be plenty of work in fallout cleanup.

Enjoy the lull.
13 posted on 11/06/2001 8:19:17 PM PST by a_Turk
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To: Justa
Linux has a gui? Oh, X-windows/KDE/whatever. Real unix is using VI to peruse core dumps. Slackware is the best distro. It contains it's own evolutionary parsing routine. GRIN!

/john

14 posted on 11/06/2001 8:19:25 PM PST by JRandomFreeper
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To: Not_Who_U_Think
I spent over a year in a CS program before I realized it would be my senior year before I gained any knowledge of current languages or systems. I tremendous waste of time in my opinion - go for the business degree instead.

You either went to a bad school or had way too much fun ;>) I say get an real engineering degree - CE or EE. Then go for a master's in software engineering. So you can call yourself a software engineer and mean it. Then again most EEs write horrific code.

15 posted on 11/06/2001 8:28:08 PM PST by StockAyatollah
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To: kd5cts
Linux certification is a trial by fire involving dead chickens, bondage, and high-explosives.

Actually, Linux certification is by professional instruction at an Accredited Center of Education followed by testing through Prometric or VUE.

16 posted on 11/06/2001 8:43:47 PM PST by Philip_the_evangelist
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To: Justa
I remember hearing that there were more than 1 million unfilled IT jobs in 2000 (probably just IT certification company's propaganda) If we send all of the HB1/H1B or whatever visa people back to their own country! How many MCSE's or other IT professionals do you think would be more than willing to take those jobs?

Hell, I'm willing to take one of those jobs that only Mexicans will do that Americans won't do.

17 posted on 11/06/2001 8:46:27 PM PST by ledzep75
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To: kd5cts
Linux has a gui? Oh, X-windows/KDE/whatever. Real unix is using VI to peruse core dumps.

You're right, we wouldn't want UNIX users to have to deal with KDE or GNOME. It just wouldn't be right.

18 posted on 11/06/2001 8:51:16 PM PST by Philip_the_evangelist
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To: Justa
Could be worse....you could be a CNE!! Talk about a dinasaur in the IT field.

To answer typical questions, your particular job will determine whether the MCSE (or other appropriate certification) is worth it.

If you are looking for a new job....companies look for one of two types of guys. Some experience, without cert., or certified with minimal experience for more entry level positions. And certified with experience for mid to higher level positions. Other skills such as writing, program management, project management can also greatly affect job opportunities, as well as compensation. Some companies favor veterans.

In short, it varies greatly. But all other things being equal, the person with a cert will get the job over someone without, so it is ultimately in your best interest to get some type of relevant cert.

Good luck to all!
19 posted on 11/06/2001 8:55:53 PM PST by Justin Thyme
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To: Philip_the_evangelist
I shoulda used the < /sarcasm> tag. Sorry.

I work Solaris admin in the slave-hold, but use Linux on my free-hold. The Wife is a Novell/Microsloth admin/user. As one who hires and fires, I don't care about certifications. I want to know what you really know about real situations that cost me money. Certifications were supposed to do that. They don't. I'll stick with my sit-'em-down and tell them to type

rm -r /
and see how much they flinch. GRIN!

/john

20 posted on 11/06/2001 9:07:04 PM PST by JRandomFreeper
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