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To: OLD REGGIE
Ah, St. Augustine. That great Father and Doctor of the Church.

"For if none have baptism who entertain false views about God, it has been proved sufficiently, in my opinion, that this may happen even within the Church. 'The apostles,' indeed, 'gave no injunctions on the point;' but the custom, which is opposed to Cyprian, may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings." (On Baptism, Contra Donatists, Book 5:23)

"As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established" (Letter 54)

"There are other things, however, which are different in different places and countries: e.g., some fast on Saturday, others do not; some partake daily of the body and blood of Christ, others receive it on stated days: in some places no day passes without the sacrifice being offered"(Letter 54)

Do you, like Augustine, believe that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? Like Augustine, do you affirm that the Eucharist is a true sacrifice?

"It is not to be doubted that the dead are aided by prayers of holy church, and by salutary sacrifice, and by alms, which are offered for their spirits; that the Lord may deal with them more mercifully than their sins have deserved. For this, which has been handed down by the Fathers, the universal Church observes." (Sermon 72)

Do you share Augustine's belief that it is good and efficacious to pray for the souls of the dead?

"But as in the thief, to whom the material administration of the sacrament was necessarily wanting, the salvation was complete, because it was spiritually present through his piety, so, when the sacrament itself is present, salvation is complete, if what the thief possessed be unavoidably wanting. And this is the firm tradition of the universal Church, in respect of the baptism of infants, who certainly are as yet unable "with the heart to believe unto righteousness, and with the mouth to make confession unto salvation," as the thief could do; nay, who even, by crying and moaning when the mystery is performed upon them, raise their voices in opposition to the mysterious words, and yet no Christian will say that they are baptized to no purpose." (On Baptism, Contra Donatists, Book 4:23)

"And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized." (On Baptism, Contra Donatists, Book 4:24)

Like Augustine, do you affirm that the baptism of infants is a Christian Truth?

And last, but certainly not least.

"But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent?" (Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental, 5:6)

Listen, I could produce more quotes on Augustine's belief and defense of Tradition, Apostolic Succession, the authority of the deuterocanon(aka "Apocrypha"), an ordained Priesthood, the authority of Councils, the Sacraments, Mary, etc... But I think that I have demonstrated that Augustine was Catholic through and through and that any attempt to make him into some sort of proto-Protestant is an exercise in futility.

Pray for John Paul II

2,637 posted on 10/24/2001 10:52:52 PM PDT by dignan3
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To: dignan3
Listen, I could produce more quotes on Augustine's belief and defense of Tradition, Apostolic Succession, the authority of the deuterocanon(aka "Apocrypha"), an ordained Priesthood, the authority of Councils, the Sacraments, Mary, etc... But I think that I have demonstrated that Augustine was Catholic through and through and that any attempt to make him into some sort of proto-Protestant is an exercise in futility.

Listen, St. Augustine is not my hero, he is your hero. The "Catholic through and through" had some beliefs which were/are in direct with current RCC doctrine. You choose to ignore them. Why?

1. Because the Church hadn't taken a firm position on these issues yet.

2. Because he wasn't infallible.

3. Because no one said he was correct on all issues, he was capable of error just like any other human.

4. Because we reserve the right to go through the salad and throw out the carrots if we choose to do so.

5. Just because.
2,672 posted on 10/25/2001 7:13:48 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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