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To: Wordsmith
I would humbly remind you that this is through no power of your own, and to always be on guard against pride. Thus my offer of prayers. My offer was genuine, and I'm sorry that you are not trusting enough to receive it as such. Christ Bless.

I know it's through nothing I have in me other than Jesus. The which I have been saying all along. People without Jesus and the Holy Spirit have no authority through them. That is why the Demon said "Jesus I Know and Paul I know; but who are you.." All true christians have such authority. but then that is where it is so important to know the true gosple message. Without it, you can go jousting with no spiritual weapons - deluded - and be run through. This is why many decieved ministers are lept upon and taken to task by the possessed. It's why some priests in early writings were sent a running by demons they attempted to drive out. Approaching with no authority and no understanding of spiritual things is a good way to get oneself injured or killed along with the person attempting to be helped. And I'd venture to say this is why you don't see True miracles or deliverances, etc in the Catholic church. I've seen creative miracles worked through evangelicals. I've never seen, heard or read of even one through the Catholic church in my time. Nor do I know of any catholic that has.

Jesus said the fruits of the Spirit would follow those who were truly His. Where are they in Catholicism? Where have they been? I've seen the fruits of the Devil all through Roman catholic history, but, no fruits of the Spirit of Lord God... How then can they claim to be truly His.

24,731 posted on 02/06/2002 5:31:04 PM PST by Havoc
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To: Wordsmith
I would also offer that this is the most likely reason they had to create their own definition of who the "church" is. If you meet the biblical standards, you don't have need to create and try to sell your own definitions.
24,733 posted on 02/06/2002 5:36:23 PM PST by Havoc
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To: Havoc
"I've seen creative miracles worked through evangelicals. I've never seen, heard or read of even one through the Catholic church in my time. Nor do I know of any catholic that has.

What is a creative miracle?

24,736 posted on 02/06/2002 5:42:38 PM PST by american colleen
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To: Havoc
And I'd venture to say this is why you don't see True miracles or deliverances, etc in the Catholic church. I've seen creative miracles worked through evangelicals. I've never seen, heard or read of even one through the Catholic church in my time. Nor do I know of any catholic that has.

Circular (i.e. faulty) reasoning. "Catholics don't have real miracles because they don't have the Holy Spirit. You know they don't have the Holy spirit because they don't have miracles. When they claim they have miracles, you know they lie because you know they don't have the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the fact that they don't have any miracles."

Is this what Old Reggie refers to as "spin"? Because I'm dizzy.

24,737 posted on 02/06/2002 5:42:52 PM PST by IMRight
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To: Havoc
Approaching with no authority and no understanding of spiritual things is a good way to get oneself injured or killed along with the person attempting to be helped.

You're absolutely right, and I think one of the great things you bring to this discussion is a constant reminder of the reality and seriousness of spiritual warfare. Thank you.

And I'd venture to say this is why you don't see True miracles or deliverances, etc in the Catholic church.

I can't speak for the RC's, but I must say that I do see true miracles within the Orthodox Church - inexplicable manisfestations of God's power through true believers. We don't talk about them much, and I've been taught that it is very wrong for us to go around playing "can you top this?" when it comes to miracles (I don't think you're doing this either.) Hagiography is full of tales of miracles, many of which I believe to be true. And the Orthodox Church, even today and even in America, could speak of a lengthy list of apparent miracles if it chose to - which it doesn't. We speak about them among ourselves, witness what we witness, and take from them what we pray God wants us to take.

24,835 posted on 02/07/2002 5:37:11 AM PST by Wordsmith
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To: Havoc
"Jesus said the fruits of the Spirit would follow those who were truly His. Where are they in Catholicism? Where have they been? I've seen the fruits of the Devil all through Roman catholic history, but, no fruits of the Spirit of Lord God... How then can they claim to be truly His."

Considering the historical record. If you are a European, an Asian, an African, an Indian, or a South American, and you are a Christian, it is because the Catholics spread the Gospel of the Lord to the whole world. Christ commanded the Apostles to preach the Good News to all nations. Are you saying the Catholic Church did not do that? Are you saying any white, black or asian american would even be a Christian today if the Catholics had not spread the Faith through Europe? Are you serious?

Without the amazing bounty yielded by the Catholic Church chances are that unless your people are from the eastern mediterranean you would today be an animist like your ancestors were before they were saved by Catholics.

Jesus knew his Gospel would spread across the whole world. There is no other movement, no other institution that has made this possible, only the Catholic Church.

I have known many Catholics who have had Miraculous events and cures happen in their lives as the result of their Faith and their Prayers. They are true Christians, and the true Christ works in their lives.

We are not the enemy.

25,097 posted on 02/07/2002 11:01:07 AM PST by ventana
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