Thanks to our conversation, I thought, read and prayed more about this and I can only say that I was wrong.
The Body of Christ = the church
The church = believers
Believers, therefore = the Body of Christ
Blushing in my humility, I stand corrected.
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ALL: And a good morning to the rest of you. Dave and JohnnyM ... the first reading may help clear the air with your "can you lose your salvation" debate.
| Wednesday, October 24, 2001 Saint Anthony Mary Claret, bishop - Optional Memorial |
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From wau.org ...
If there was one thing Paul was absolutely insistent about in his letter to the Christians in Rome, it was this: We have power over sin. No habit, weakness, or pattern of sin need dominate us. We don't have to live as slaves! Too incredible? Too optimistic? Too idealistic? Paul didn't think so. He went to great pains to explain that sin need no longer have dominion over us (Romans 6:17-18). In Christ, we have a choice about what we will yield to and whom we will obey.
On the cross, Jesus won freedom for us in a radical way. He died for us--instead of us--and our old, fallen life died there with him. The whole body of sin was put to death on the cross, and through baptism we are incorporated into that death. We didn't conquer sin. We died to it. Now, raised up with Christ, we are free from Satan's grip. We don't have to be ensnared by the voice of temptation any more.
This is good news. In fact, it's the very heart of the good news of Jesus Christ. Believe it. Embrace it. Put your faith in the finished work of the cross. Rejoice that you are not powerless over sin! The cross is your weapon. It makes available to you all the power you need to put sin to death by rejecting the habits that lead to sin. The more you truly believe this, the easier it will be to obey God. For what is obedience, after all, but faith put into action?
Today, as an experiment, make an extra effort to examine your thoughts. Listen to them carefully. Are they in tune with the reality of your freedom in Christ? Or are they negative, angry, accusing, fearful, or condemning? If so, take them captive in the name of Jesus. As they come up, tell Jesus you want to lay them at the foot of his cross to be judged for what they are. In your thought life, taste the freedom that is yours as a child of God. As you persist, you will see the victory of the cross become reality in more and more of your life.
"All praise to you, Jesus! By your cross, you have redeemed us for the Father. By your cross, you made us a people who are called to reign on earth."
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Have a good day, everybody.
JohnnyM ... stay tuned.
#2306 And I agree that Jesus died for all, but only those who accept Him will receive the gift of eternal life. I have showed you countless Scriptures that say no one has an excuse, and your response to this is human reasoning with NO SCRIPTURAL support. I have showed you countless number of Scriptures to refute what you think is reasonable and fair and just, but we are only justified through Christ Jesus His Son. We are only justified through ACCEPTING Him as our Lord and Savior.
Okay ... first of all, let me say this. As Dave put it yesterday, I don't believe (nor does the RCC) that God's grace gives every person on the face of the earth a "get out of Hell free card." (thanks for the analogy, Dave). That was not my point. But I still say that God's grace through the saving blood of Jesus Christ is granted to all people. Jesus didn't come to this world for the just, but for those that needed justification.
That being said, here's what I've managed to find in scripture ...
In regards to my example of a person who has not yet committed his/herself to Christ ... The RCC does not make a firm judgment about their salvation, but leaves open the possibility that God may save some people who, through no fault of their own, have not accepted the gospel of Christ. Matthew 25:31-46 tells us about the judgment of "the nations" on the basis of works of charity. Belief in Jesus Christ is not mentioned. Romans 2:12-16 (as we discussed yesterday) says "Gentiles without the law" will be judged according to God's law "written in their hearts" or "conscience." These may be exceptional cases, but the fact is ... these cases do exist.
We need to avoid presuming that those who don't believe in Jesus and His gospel (again ... through no fault of their own) are cut off from God's grace. But we should also avoid presuming that these people will be "saved" without accepting the gospel. If I didn't say this in so many words yesterday, I apologize. I, in no way, meant to say that even without Christ, people will go to Heaven.
The Bible says the message has reached the ends of the earth, yet you have no faith in that. The Bible says that none have an excuse, yet you have no faith in it. Where is the Scripture that supports your case??? I will ask you again. How does someone who has sinned become justified before God without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and please, please, please, please, please cite Scripture or your argument will be baseless.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 & 4:10 - "(God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all ... we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (emphasis mine)
Now, if God's grace didn't extend to all men, why would Paul say these things and then add "especially ..." to the end of this passage? Also, if you think God's grace doesn't extend to all, consider this. A young child (let's say 8 or so years old) who is not baptised, and is still too young to really understand what Christianity is all about, dies without ever "accepting" the gospel of our Lord. What would happen to this child? Do you think he/she would go to Heaven or would God say, "Sorry, kid, you never accepted my son as your savior. Buh-bye."? Personally ... I wouldn't touch this one. It's not my call, but God's.
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#2350 so, you're a Jew al_c?
Nope. And I don't play one on TV, either. ;o)
Seems the truth about the Catholic Church has surfaced.
And that would be ... ?
They do not beleive Christ's sacrifice was sufficient.
Sure we do.
They do not beleive you are saved by faith.
Actually, I think the bible says "by faith through grace."
They do not believe in the inerrancy of the Word.
Sure we do. But we question some peoples "translations" of the Word.
They do believe that you can enter heaven without accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior.
See above reply to your #2306.
That the testimony of Christ is null and void. Sounds a little like Judaism to me.
We can all thank the Jews for our faith/religion today as we can all trace our faith's/religion's roots back to the Jews.
If you can enter heaven without Christ, then why did God send his Son to die for us??
He died for all of us, whether or not we accept that. I could deny that He died for me until I become blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that He did die for me. But by denying Him, I would be doing Him and myself a grave injustice.
If there was already a way to get there, then sending His Son sure was a waste. And once again you have failed to cite Scripture.
No, it was not a waste as it gave every person an avenue to His kingdom. See scripture above.
I will no longer reply to anymore of your responses until you cite Scripture. Don't pass the buck to someone who doesn't even believe Christ is the Son of God. If you can't answer this most basic question on your own using Scripture, then you better return to the Word and seek the Truth.
I am tired of playing word games. Can you or can you not enter heaven without accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior?? If you think you can you better have Scripture to back it up.
I hope you've calmed down a bit overnight. I enjoy the opportunity to learn from one another, but I do not enjoy trying to converse with someone that gets bent out of shape during a debate. That said, I hope we can learn some things from others on these threads. I know I have in the past, and continue to grow on my walk with Christ.
Thanks to our conversation, I thought, read and prayed more about this and I can only say that I was wrong.
The Body of Christ = the church The church = believers Believers, therefore = the Body of Christ
Blushing in my humility, I stand corrected.
Thanks for the honesty to admit your error, but how long have you been on these threads? How could you NOT have seen this before? Were these RC's that taught you that everyone is a child of God? You should have also realized this by reading the Scriptures, Jesus and the apostles taught clearly that some are adopted as children of God and some are not.