The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[RobbyS]

Are you all talking about I Clement? My edition of Lightfoot sais that it is one of the earliest--if not the earliest--extant Christian docyments outsaide the New Testament. "It was written about the time that John was composing Revelations on the island of Patmos? " The editor's view, however, is that Clement may not have been THE bishop of the Church of Rome, but the recording secretary or the leading bishop, since the office of monarchial bishop did not exist at that time. The editor, however, does not however give a source for his speculation except for a choice of pronouns in the text. It is intersting, by the way, that each time that Clement tells his listeners to "search the Scripture." he then alludes to a passage from the Jewish Scriptures. He does quote Christian scriptures, but more or less, aking the lines of " "As our Lord said. ..." by way of illustration.

By the way, it is rather ridiculous to think that Rome had to invent some reason why it should be the center of the Christian Church after the destruction of Jerusalem. Rome was the "Big Apple." Until the founding of New Rome in 330, it had no natural rival. Neither Antioch nor Alexandria could compete. And as an article I presented aboves notes, Those cities, which could also claim to be Apostolic Sees, fell under "barbarian" control, leaving only Rome as an independent religious center.

[hopefulpilgrim]

What does your history lesson in 7653 have to do with my comment in 7615 about the possible reason for the lack of our knowing about 3rd or 4th century opposition to catholic traditions?

[hopefulpilgrim]

You didn't convince me in 7656 that Christ is exalted by marianist doctrines. So I will say it again:

Christ is not exalted by venerating Mary and the saints.

[RobbyS]

Certainly, some of the writers of Scripture outlived Mary and would have reported the miracle of her Bodily Assumption. No???>/i> And because they didn't, it didn't happen, right? The probable often doesn't happen.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Never have I equated the Kingdom of God with the Catholic Church. By that statement I do not mean to divorce the two,I am merely saying they are not equal. While it may be the door,it is not the Kingdom.

Right. The rcc is the door to the kingdom of God... There's only ONE door, and that is Jesus Christ. He did not say, "The church is the way," nor did He say, "The church is the door." He HIMSELF is the way, the truth, and the life. He said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

Brothers and sisters, we need go no further to find an example of catholic heresy.

[OLD REGGIE]

Are you all talking about I Clement? My edition of Lightfoot sais that it is one of the earliest--if not the earliest--extant Christian docyments outsaide the New Testament. "It was written about the time that John was composing Revelations on the island of Patmos?

I think we are talking about the same person. If so, the Catholic Encyclopedia says Lightfoot doesn't know what he is talking about. See my post #7732 and follow the link to the CE Article. OK?

[the808bass]

Hi, Angelo. Could you give a simple example of this problem? I may be misunderstanding it, because I see just the opposite (big surprise, huh?). So perhaps an example would help me. Thanks.

The problem for most is that a person who believes they are "just reading the text" cannot see that they are interpreting. And no matter how many times they are told or the various ways it is demonstrated to them, if they really believe they are just "reading the text," no evidence to the contrary will be allowed. Think of it this way, when the Catholics assert that their church is infallible and protected from error, what evidence can you offer them that will prove to them that they are wrong? Usually, the same kind of evidence that you can offer to a Protestant of their Bible interpretation. Namely, none. FWIW IMVHO

[hopefulpilgrim]

I do believe the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ and He will protect it from error. However,men are imperfect so frequently,imperfect men have transgressed and participated in actions that were evil,that is why the Pope apologised.

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. How can the church be protected from error and then do something erroneous, not to mention downright wicked? Church leaders (in any church) are fallible men, and God never promised any of them that they would be free of error. Those men of God whom and when God used to write scripture are exceptions, because they "wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

[RobbyS]

Christ is not exalted by venerating Mary and the saints. A Protestant iconoclast is unlikely to be convinced, of anything that is outside his tradition. I was simply pointing out that since Jesus was raised to the level of Lord,the superior even of the emperor, then the way was opened for intermediaries.

[RobbyS]

The Church is the mystical body of Christ.

[RobbyS]

Doctrinal error, zealot.

[OLD REGGIE]

If it was the fourth century before any bishop of Rome claimed primacy, where did Clement(the 4th Bishop of Rome)get off writing an epistle to the Corinthians, scolding them for some shortcomings and telling them what to do, in the year 110, A.D.? And expecting the Corinthians to pay attention ?

Because, he was successor to Peter, the "holder of the keys"

If he really did so was he the only one who wrote letters to the Corinthians. Were they all Popes?

So many of the alleged letters, The Clementine Letters, were forgeries how would you know which to believe, if any?

Forgive this long copy.

1. Clement of Rome(about 30-96 A.D.). He is alleged to be the first, second, third, or fourth, Bishop, or Pope, of Rome (CE. iv, 13); and to be the author of two Epistles to the Corinthians, besides other bulky and important forgeries, thus confessed and catalogued by CE:

“Many writings have been falsely attributed to Pope St. Clement: (1) The ‘Second Clementine Epistle to the Corinthians.’ Many critics have believed them genuine [they having been read in the Churches]. ... But it is now admitted on all hands that they cannot be by the same author as the genuine [?] Epistle to the Corinthians. ... (2) Two Epistles to Virgins.’ (3) At the head of the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals stand five letters attributed to St. Clement. (4) Ascribed to Clement are the ‘Apostolic Constitutions,’ ‘Apostolic Canons,’ and the “Testament of our lord.’ (5) The ‘Clementines’ or ‘Pseudo-Clementines,’ including the Recognitions and Homilies,” hereafter to be noticed. (CE. iv, 14-15; cf. 17, 39.)

The second of these alleged Epistles of Clement to the Corinthians is thus admittedly a forgery, together with everything else in his name but the alleged First Epistle. The case for this First Epistle is little if any better; but as it is the very flimsy basis of one of the proudest claims of Holy Church—though suppressed as “proof” of another claim which it disproves,—it is, as it were, plucked as a brand from the burning of all the other Clementine forgeries, and placed at the head of all the writings of the Fathers. Of this I Clement EB. says: “The author is certainly not Clement of Rome, whatever may be our judgment as to whether or not Clement was a bishop, a martyr, a disciple of the apostles. The martyrdom, set forth in untrustworthy Acts, has for its sole foundation the identification of Clement of Rome with Flavius Clement the consul, who was executed by cominand of Domitian,”—A.D. 81-96. (EB. iii, 3486.) This First Epistle is supposed to have been written about the year 96-98, by Clement, friend and coworker of Paul, according to the late “tradition” first set in motion by Dionysius, A.D. 170. But “This Clement,” says CE., after citing the Fathers, “was probably a Philippian.” (CE. iv, 13.) “Who the Clement was to whom the writings were ascribed, cannot with absolute certainty be determined.” (ANF. i, 2.)

It is notable that the pretendedly genuine “First Epistle” does not contain or mention the name of any one as its author, nor name Clement; its address is simply: “The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojurning at Corinth.” There is only one MS. of it in existence, a translation into Latin from the original Greek. This is the celebrated MS. of “Holy Scripture” {118} known as Codex A, which was discovered and presented to Charles I of England by Cyril of Alexandria, in 1628; the Fathers cited both I and II Clement as Scripture. On this MS., at the end of I Clement, is written, “The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians”: a subscription which proves itself a forgery and that it was not written by Clement, who could not know that a later forger would write a “Second Clement,” so as to give him occasion to call his own the First. (ANF. viii, 55-56.)

By whomever this “First Epistle” was written, by Father, Bishop, or Pope of Rome, his zeal and his intelligence are demonstrated by his argument, in Chapter xxv, of the truth of the Resurrection; in proof of which he makes this powerful and faith-compelling plea: “Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the City called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the 500th year was completed.” (ANF. i. p. 12. Note: “This fable respecting the phoenix is mentioned by Herodotus (ii, 73) and by Pliny (Nat. X, 2), and is used as above by Tertullian (De Resurr., see. 13), and by others of the Fathers.” CF,. iv, 15.)

The occasion for the pretended writing of this Epistle, and the very high significance of it, will be noticed when we treat of the origin of the Church which sojourns at Roine.

Clement Forgeries

[ELS]

St. Frances Xavier Cabrini was the first American citizen to be canonized.

[RobbyS]

Not sure what is to be done with this link, except to dismiss it as an elaborate effort to discredit all Christian writings, except the New Testament.

[RobbyS]

It is interesting that this is also true of the Gospels.

[hopefulpilgrim]

LOL !

[hopefulpilgrim]

I think as soon as we believe we have God in our mental grasp, we can be certain what we have grasped is not God.

Maybe not the totality of God, but God has spent an awful lot of time and paid a high price for us to know Him. Your statement attempts to put Him out of reach again. He wants to be known by us. His Word is a record of that, and the only way we can know Him. You want to overlay the Word with all this mumbo-jumbo, Tradition, pomp and circumstance, mystery and layers of heirarchy. You're not bringing people close to God, you're pushing them farther away.

Excellent point, nobdy.

He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." John 14:21,23

[hopefulpilgrim]

This:

The Church is the mystical body of Christ.

is a funny response to this:

The rcc is the door to the kingdom of God... There's only ONE door, and that is Jesus Christ. He did not say, "The church is the way," nor did He say, "The church is the door." He HIMSELF is the way, the truth, and the life.

---------------------------------------------------

So the rcc is the door to itself because it is the "mystical body of Christ." This is pitiful.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Doctrinal error, zealot.

Error is error.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey, everyone! They're catching on to the CHEESE phenomenon on the other threads ...

al_c you need to get out a little more often. :)

BigMack