Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Either you are trying to be funny, or you are truly out of your depth.
You are the one being rediculous, it most certainly does violate our free will ability to choose.
Ask someone who has no intrest in any religion, if God gives man total free will to choose his way of life, and then if he dosn't do so, and when he dies he has sin and God then burns it out of him against his will, if that wouldn't be called "forced salvation" to make him acceptable to God?
What on earth are you talking about? I'll explain what I mean and then maybe you can explain what you mean more slowly, ok?
God doesn't force anybody to go to Purgatory. God certainly doesn't take unrepentent people there. Is that what you think? I could see you had a point if God just abducted me and placed me there. If you would stop listening to Havoc and actually studied what I am talking about you wouldn't have these crazy misconceptions. OK?
It's like this. I am a Christian. I accept the gift of Christ. I try my whole life through to obey God and do his will. But there is still some imperfection in me. Maybe I get short with my wife, or like to tipple a few too many beers. I try my hardest to overcome these, but I die while still not being perfect.
I am judged by God and since I accepted Christ I am saved. But I am not perfect so I am subject to a period of Purgation. This cleans me up and gets me ready to enter Heaven. The end.
Now what did God do to violate my free will? Had I exercised my free will better, with the power of Christ, I could have overcome my attachment to sin and could have been pure when I died. If that was the case I would have went to Heaven directly. God would judge this but it doesn't violate my free will.
If I exercised my free will to disobey God and did what I pleased then I obviously had never really had a faith in God to begin with. God would throw me into hell. Again, because of my free will choices.
Now how is God violating my free will?
SD
Another construct of yours, not the Catholics. You like to build your own strawmen (unrelated to Catholic belief), knock them to the ground, and then fall all over yourself doing your victory dance.
The Virgin Mary is not above the Lord or even equal to the Lord. The Lord is her Savior, just like for us. She is not a God. The it is why the Ave Maria prayer requests her to "pray for us sinners". If she is God, to whom would she be praying? No, she is not God; she is praying to God.
Either you are trying to be funny, or you are truly out of your depth.
I consider it "performance art." You talk about how dangerous our MAry doctrines are, that they are easy to take the wrong way. I am doing the exact same thing. Rejecting your "Saved by faith alone" doctrine because it is easy for people to misunderstand.
I'm sorry that you don't get it. Someone here must understand the silliness of your position of "rejecting what isn't taught becasue other people are stupid." I'm showing you how your principle works on your treasured "faith alone" doctrine.
SD
This reminds me; SoothingDave mentioned 3 questions on Friday morning that he would like to see discussed. One of them was on the providence of God, although I don't recall if it was stated in those terms. It had to do with whether our prayers move God to work in ways that He hadn't planned... Hmmm.....I'll have to try to find it. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on that, too. ESPECIALLY if you have scriptural statements or illustrations to back up what you say. Questions concerning His providence or involvement or intervention have been on my mind for a long time now...several years, anyway.
I triple this call of hp's for us to discuss the usefulness of prayer and whether God can be swayed by our pleading.
SD
Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
No works, no striving, no rules.
You have made it more than clear that you don't think that Catholics pray to Mary/Saints. Well then how do you explain this excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia?
"Who can prayAs He has promised to intercede for us (John, xiv, 16), and is said to do so (Rom., viii, 34; Heb., vii, 25), we may ask His intercession, though this is not customary in public worship. He prays in virtue of His own merits; the saints intercede for us in virtue of His merits, not their own. Consequently when we pray to them, it is to ask for their intercession in our behalf, not to expect that they can bestow gifts on us of their own power, or obtain them in virtue of their own merit. Even the souls in purgatory, according to the common opinion of theologians, pray to God to move the faithful to offer prayers, sacrifices, and expiatory works for them. They also pray for themselves and for souls still on earth. The fact that Christ knows the future, or that the saints may know many future things, does not prevent them from praying. As they foresee the future, so also they foresee how its happenings may be influenced by their prayers, and they at least by prayer do all in their power to bring about what is best, though those for whom they pray may not dispose themselves for the blessings thus invoked. The just can pray, and sinners also. The opinion of Quesnel that the prayer of the sinned adds to his sin was condemned by Clement XI (Denzinger, 10 ed., n. 1409). Though there is no supernatural merit in the sinner's prayer, it may be heard, and indeed he is obliged to make it just as before he sinned. No matter how hardened he may become in sin, he needs and is bound to pray to be delivered from it and from the temptations which beset him. His prayer could offend God only if it were hypocritical, or presumptuous, as if he should ask God to suffer him to continue in his evil course. It goes without saying that in hell prayer is impossible; neither devils nor lost souls can pray, or be the object of prayer."
-ksen
This is an excellent question. Let me begin by presenting a prayer which without doubt was ineffectual as far as swaying God, but nevertheless one would be reluctant to accuse Christ of praying ineffectually. A quandry, no?
Matthew 26
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
I attend church with my wife, who plays violin in a church orchestra, when she asks and I love to be there for her. Attend being the key word. No longer will I put my heart into a man made church.
the saints intercede for us in virtue of His merits, not their own. Consequently when we pray to them, it is to ask for their intercession in our behalf, not to expect that they can bestow gifts on us of their own power, or obtain them in virtue of their own merit.
Therefore, saying we pray "to" saints is true if it is understood that we pray only for their prayers and not if it is meant that we think saints have their own magic powers.
SD
Good Day Angelo!
I believe that the Kingdom of God encompasses Heaven, eternity and all of Creation.
A subset of the Kingdom of God would be the Kingdom of Heaven, mentioned in Matthew. That will be the 1,000 years of the Messianic Kingdom here on earth.
-ksen
James 5
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
We run hot and cold. A new proddie came in throwing the same old stink bombs of ignorance, to a chorus of cheers from the regulars. A sometime Catholic poster responded with similar heated sentiment.
SD
Shouldn't that be "confess your faults to a priest"?
Dare I ask what proof you have?
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