The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[Havoc]

Havoc, is there such a thing as reason that is guided by the Holy Spirit, or is faith inherently unreasonable?

DAVE, What do the scriptures say?!

[american colleen]

Don't agree with this at all. When you receive a christmas gift you don't think of the package as having any input in deciding what to give.

I don't understand your analogy.

A gift is a gift, encompassing the entire package.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Since God is our salvation, Mary is an integral part of our salvation.

If you believe this statement, then in the same breath say you don't worship Mary, wouldn't that be dangerous? If Mary is part of your salvation I would think she deserves your worship.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

OK. I've stepped back to the keyboard. I don't see a prob with Mary as the mother of God. She bore Jesus. Jesus is God. Doesn't mean that Mary is God.

All right! Maybe you should step away more often. ;-)

Seriously, thanks for seeing what we are saying and how we are saying it and not making it a point of conflict.

SD

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>What translation are you using for the Jude? This is what I find.

OR>Now that you asked, I can't find that interpretation either. My reply to al_c was to indicate "tradition" is never meant to imply "future" in Scripture.

OR>I did find an Orthodox site which quotes the same version of Jude 1:3 that al_c did????????????????

OR>"At the request of His Grace Bishop Innocent of Alaska, the Orthodox Christian Mission Center recently sent a short-term teaching mission team to the Kuskokwim River in Alaska. This mission team was unique in that it was comprised completely of Orthodox Christians from the continental United States to Alaska. In the past, most missionaries from the “lower 48” traveled to Alaska to convert the natives from their Orthodox Faith. This team would go with a different message to the Orthodox people of Alaska: “You have a beautiful faith! Hold on to these traditions which have been passed down to you. Your faith is the faith that was ‘once for all delivered to the saints.’ (Jude 3)”

The reason I ask is that the word translated as "tradition" <GSN-3862> only occurs in 1Cor 11:2 & 2 Th 2:15.

parado,seij noun accusative feminine plural common

[UBS] para,dosij, ewj f tradition (of teachings, etc. handed down from one group or generation to another)

xeni>a, << <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[elwoodp]

Right on, I'm with you all the way on that one.

[american colleen]

I believe that the bodily Assumption of Mary can be traced in writing to @ the 4th century.

May I ask what "Traditions" were secret for hundreds of years? I've never heard that before.

[IMRight]

You guys have been arguing for months now that the satement mother of God is a true statement.

It is. And we aren't backing down from that now.

Now out of the blue you are changing the argument to look like we are arguing over the statement "bearer of God",

We have used the term "Theotokos" since the begining. It is neither "out of the blue" nor "changing the subject"

creator of God, etc.

"Creator of God" was intended to distinguish between my conception of Mary's role and what you seemed to be disputing. If you say "how can Mary be the Mother of something that has always existed?" you are really saying that "mother of God" implies "creator of God". Again I say: It does not and she did not.

[SoothingDave]

Havoc, is there such a thing as reason that is guided by the Holy Spirit, or is faith inherently unreasonable?

DAVE, What do the scriptures say?!

Well, I understand the Scripture to say that man's reason alone can never lead him to understand God. It will always lead him to sin.

Now, my question is not about man's reason alone, but whether reason can be used, inspired by the Holy Spirit to understand God and the faith better. Is there a difference between the two situations, in your estimation?

Is reason guided by the Holy Spirit possible, and could it lead to enlightenment and understanding? Or does the Holy Spirit not work with reason, works, in fact, in opposition to reason, as an enemy of it?

I answered your question.

SD

[malakhi]

But I don't know any other way to capture this thought: Jesus is God, always was God, even in the womb.

Hey, I have an idea! How about "Mary, mother of Jesus who is God"?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But I still think you do agree with everything we believe about Mary carrying and giving birth to a person who is God, except for the word we use to describe it.

Well you think wrong.

I still think you all are a bunch of Mary worshippers, who belong to a work based faith, who think dead people answer your prayers, and get forgiveness of your sins from a priest.

Becky

[IMRight]

You know what. I'v been fighting with the neighbors about the meaning of the by-laws they are trying to get past for their stinking Homeowners Ass.

Ahhh. And we are in agreement again.

[SoothingDave]

Hey, I have an idea! How about "Mary, mother of Jesus who is God"?

LOL If only the early Church spoke German, cause they would have found a way to make that all one catchy word. :-)

SD

[malakhi]

But I don't know any other way to capture this thought: Jesus is God, always was God, even in the womb.

Thanks! And welcome to The Neverending Story!

Rather than reading the next 33,599 posts, I'd suggest you jump up to today's posts, and pick it up from here. Whatever the topic you're interested in, we're bound to get to it at some point, and you are always welcome to bring it up yourself!

[american colleen]

God chose Mary to reveal Himself - his Word and his Plan - that means something to me. I venerate the Virgin Mary as she is the example of perfect obedience to Him and she is the means by which he chose his entrance into this world.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ahhh. And we are in agreement again.

That you twist as good as they do?

Becky

[SoothingDave]

But I still think you do agree with everything we believe about Mary carrying and giving birth to a person who is God, except for the word we use to describe it.

Well you think wrong.

How so? I haven't seen you object to the idea that Jesus was God and that Mary bore Him and gave birth to Him.

I still think you all are a bunch of Mary worshippers, who belong to a work based faith, who think dead people answer your prayers, and get forgiveness of your sins from a priest.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope your neighborhood assoc. fight goes well.

SD

[IMRight]

OK. I've stepped back to the keyboard. I don't see a prob with Mary as the mother of God. She bore Jesus. Jesus is God. Doesn't mean that Mary is God.

Hal... (oops. I almost "used the word"). Thank you Steven. Next step... You wanna go to a Seder supper with my family?

[malakhi]

elwoodp's reference to my post #7 on this thread encouraged me to do some checking. According to my calculations, we passed the halfway point of capacity on this thread on 3/8/02, with my post #32768. At the rate we are going, we will have filled up this thread by August, rather than December as I originally projected! ;o)

[IMRight]

OK. I've stepped back to the keyboard. I don't see a prob with Mary as the mother of God. She bore Jesus. Jesus is God. Doesn't mean that Mary is God.

Hal... (oops. I almost "used the word"). Thank you Steven. Next step... You wanna go to a Seder supper with my family?