Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
What does it matter?
Seems to be, that God sets a higher standard for clergy than you and the papist church does.
Does that mean that you have no problem with a pope being a practicing queer, bisexual, pedophile, rapist, murderer, heroin addict, crackhead, etc?
Don't you think the "Vicar of Christ" should at least be one who isn't living in open rebellion against God? Or maybe you don't agree that the intrinsically evil of practicing homosexuality, bisexuality, fornication, adultery, pedophilia, etc is living in open rebellion against God???
What does it matter?
Seems to be, that God sets a higher standard for clergy than you and the papist church does.
Does that mean that you have no problem with a pope being a practicing queer, bisexual, pedophile, rapist, murderer, heroin addict, crackhead, etc?
Don't you think the "Vicar of Christ" should at least be one who isn't living in open rebellion against God? Or maybe you don't agree that the intrinsically evil of practicing homosexuality, bisexuality, fornication, adultery, pedophilia, etc is living in open rebellion against God???
Merely by avoiding the acts, not having sex, being "chaste," they can avoid "sin," as the Church defines it. This seems to be your idea, please correct me if I am wrong.
Let's see what the Catechism says. First, the paragraph we have already looked at.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Homosexuals are called to chastity. Havoc thinks this means merely avoiding the physical acts. That one can be as gay as he wants, immerse himself in gayness, just not do the acts and he is "chaste."
But let's look at the end of that paragraph. "They can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection." Wow. This doesn't sound like an approval to be gay, without the acts. This sounds like a call to avoid all sin, all enjoyment of sin, all desire of sin. "Christian perfection." Wow.
That doesn't sound like one can be in a homosexual lifestyle and be resoultely approaching Christian perfection. Wonder why Havoc and the other Catholic detractors missed this?
SD
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
Chastity is a form of temperance. There's an old fashioned word. It seeks to permeate the passions and appetites with reason. That means that man learns self-control, he is no longer a slave to his appetites.
Now would a man who was "chaste," no longer a slave to his passions immerse himself in a "lifestyle" which celebrate a peculiar sin? Does this make any sense? Chastity seems to forbid reveling in ones sin, but rather is a mastery of the passions which enslave.
SD
What, then, are we arguing about?
The Church requires its unmarried priests to remain completely chaste. The fact that unchaste priests exist is a problem of enforcement, not of law. Rome needs to come down hard on those who violate priestly purity.
Ignoring your vulgarity :) I think that line signal is the problem. I'm pretty sure that the audio card is looking for the lower "mic" level (it is a mic jack I think). You may be better off getting a 1/4"-headphone converting jack and plug straight into the card (you can get a pack of four or five audio jack converters for a couple bucks at best buy,radio shack, circuit city etc.etc.etc).
I'm not a big audio geek so don't take this as infallible. I'll look it up in the catechism and see if I can get you a better answer:)
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy. 126 "Man's dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end." 127
Either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy. Wow. Do you figure a man who identifies himself as a sinner and lives and celebrates a lifestyle of a sinner, even if avoiding physical acts, is really "governing" his passions? Or does it seem more like he is "dominated by them?"
Hmmmm? Which one of these is "chastity," and which isn't?
SD
As a point of order, the Church requires all Christians to live a life of chastity. There is such a thing as married chastity.
SD
Oh, I understand the language just fine. I understand the language of the scriptures. I understand english. And I understand Greek and Some Chaldee. I just don't understand the Catholic tendancy to fabricate words for everything under the sun rather than sticking with the verbage the Apostles used. When terms match, there is no confusion. When statements are precise, there is no confusion. Your clergy took three paragraphs of your catechism to dance around an issue you guys pretty much argued both sides of almost at the same time - simultaneously saying the Bible doesn't say it's a sin and that Catholicism does - The Bible puts it in that plain language. Your church put it in three paragraphs worth of hooey. Thank you for your participation.
Does homosexuality render procreation impossible? Then it is intrinsically evil.
Sorry, "No joy" here. I doubt that Catholics are substantially less likely to divorce than NCs. Nor are fundamentalists less likely to split up than liberal christians. One of the great shames of the church (little "c") in the last few decades is our divorce rate (and in the RCC the ease of annulment) which is not significantly better than those who pay Christ no heed :(
As to your first point... did I ignore you? Or was this a side jab at someone else?
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