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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: B-Chan
Any practice of homosexuality, pedophilia, or toher non-chaste sexuality----whether by priests, Protestant ministers, rabbis, imans, Buddhist, Hindus, Shinto, animists, Treekies, or any other human beings---is intrinsically evil and sinful.

Do you agree that RC clergy who practice instrinsically evil and sinful acts, should remain clergy? Do you believe their intrincally evil sinfulness should be protected by the heirarchy within the RCC?

I certainly don't , for Protestants, or any other denomination. Neither did St. Paul setting a high standard for pastors and overseers in 1 Timothy 3, as well as other places. Would you agree?

30,921 posted on 02/28/2002 9:21:44 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: IMRight; OLD REGGIE
No coffee this morning Steve? You seem a little on edge. Maybe Mack would give you a back rub and "grease you up"?
In light of OR's aversion to Latin, maybe he'd prefer a little "Greecing" today.
30,922 posted on 02/28/2002 9:21:45 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Havoc
I invited you to define "chastity" and to explain how something that is "intrinsically evil" is not a sin. You have not.

How about let's look at what was said:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, 141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Now, short of dividing the above letters into columns and rows and playing word search where diagonal, bacward, horizontal and vertical scoring is possible - Would you mind pointing out where the phrase "intrinsically Evil" appears - anywhere in the above?

One finds not the exact phrase, but the idea. What would you call something that is "grave depravity," "intrinsically disorderd," "contrary to the natural law," that under "no circumstances can be approved of"?

Well? Do me one better. Name me something that is a violation of the natural law that is NOT evil.

Why would you read this, other than having a black heart where the Catholic Church is concerned, and believe this is an APPROVAL of such behavior or lifestyles surrounding it? Do you think that since the Catechism doesn't explicitly forbid adulterous "lifestyles" that it would approve of one surrounding himself in the trappings of a fornication "lifestyle" as long as he didn't actually fornicate? Do you?

Secondly, chastity: 1. Virginity 2. Virtuousness 3. Celibacy. Right out of the dictionary. So, please honor us with the official Catholic version of the word for our Catholic dictionary of terms as it appears your redefinition of the language has bearing on what you think you're saying.

I will in time expose for you the full meaning. But I believe you have stumbled upon an answer for yourself.

The Church calls all homosexuals to a life of chastity, which you have provided a definition of which includes the idea of "virtuousness."

I would hope that your idea of "virtuousness" does not include the idea of living a homosexual "lifestyle," while avoiding the actual acts. Now why do you think the Catholic call to virtuousness is any different from your own idea?

SD

30,923 posted on 02/28/2002 9:25:18 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Hmmmmmm....really dave, you don't love the warts?

When someone says, We love her warts and all---what does that mean to you?

I guess you will just have to shun me, cuz yule get no retraction nor apology.

So are you telling me that it's evil for Rome to move pedophile priest from location to location, knowing they are peodphiles and are going to a new area with "fresh victims to prey on"? Is that evil or isn't it?

30,924 posted on 02/28/2002 9:25:51 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: Havoc
Here's a gay site:

We live in a world in which religious beliefs are not simply personal, but continually threaten to spill over to public policy and law. The Vatican has repeatedly urged the U.S. Catholic hierarchy to lead the fight against gay rights legislation, same-sex marriage, and even safe sex education. The Christian Coalition and similar groups do the same. For queers to criticize them - and to work against them - is not "Catholic bashing" but a model of self- respect and political organizing. When Tony Kushner criticizes the Pope and the American Bishops for their virulently homophobic beliefs -- particularly the dogma that homosexual acts are "intrinsically evil" and that homosexuality is an "objective disorder" or as a Vatican document stated in 1986 referring to AIDS that "homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people" - is he Catholic bashing or simply exerting his right to define his own life and sense of self.
Looks like the gay community thinks that the RCC thinks their activities are "evil". You think maybe Dave got to them too?
30,925 posted on 02/28/2002 9:25:53 AM PST by IMRight
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain,al_c
I did notice that Steven grabbed #30k ... but was it the official 30K?

Yeah, its Official, but under protest.:) Da, Al!

As member of "Russian" (rushin'?) parish, am thinkink is corrupt judges that ignore poor Russians.

I should get prize. I thought about posting.

Paul (LOL)

30,926 posted on 02/28/2002 9:26:24 AM PST by newberger
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To: SoothingDave
Hmmmmmm....really dave, you don't love the warts?

When someone says, We love her warts and all---what does that mean to you?

I guess you will just have to shun me, cuz yule get no retraction nor apology.

So are you telling me that it's evil for Rome to move pedophile priest from location to location, knowing they are peodphiles and are going to a new area with "fresh victims to prey on"? Is that evil or isn't it?

Ya see dave, if you are not against that evil, then you are for it, which means that you love it instead of hating it---no middle ground there.

30,927 posted on 02/28/2002 9:27:47 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: american colleen
Didn't you use your missal during Mass to follow the Latin?

Ah ha! It was necessary to know "what he was supposed to be saying" to "know what he was rapidly mumbling".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. In fact, I have heard Cushing speak via tapes - he had a Boston accent, yes, but drew out his words - my feeling when hearing the tapes was "get on with it!"

Now I know you don't have him saying the Mass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Cushing supported the racetracks because of the money that some of the founders of the tracks donated to projects of Cushing's - like hospitals. And at the time that racing was legalized, it provided much needed relief in our area in the form of jobs. Cushing did say Mass on the raceway of several local tracks, if that is what you mean.

No, that's not the way I meant it. I imagine he had a reputation as a hard drinker simply because the liquor industry donated to projects of Cushing's?

Cardinal Cushing wasn't known as the "Cardinal of the Kennedy's" for no reason you know.

BTW. He was my favorite Cardinal of all time. I liked him. He came across as a real, down to earth, common man. Certainly different than his successors.
30,928 posted on 02/28/2002 9:29:18 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: Isaiah_66_2
Do you agree that RC clergy who practice instrinsically evil and sinful acts, should remain clergy? Do you believe their intrincally evil sinfulness should be protected by the heirarchy within the RCC?

I certainly don't , for Protestants, or any other denomination. Neither did St. Paul setting a high standard for pastors and overseers in 1 Timothy 3, as well as other places. Would you agree?

How many people are there in this "perfect clergy" of yours? Not very many, I might reckon. Or are you only speaking of certain intrinsically evil and sinful acts?

SD

30,929 posted on 02/28/2002 9:29:46 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: OLD REGGIE
Methinks Dave isn't going to bother answering my last two posts to him. Seems pointing out where his argument is flawed makes him clam up and hide. Did you see the word Evil appearing in those statements regarding the homo issue. No mention of evil or of sin.. just clinical buzzwords that look like psychology.. tsk tsk. And he cussed too. Did you see the little cuss characters ;)
30,930 posted on 02/28/2002 9:31:26 AM PST by Havoc
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Time for you to take a chill pill. Or maybe a suppository.

See post #30879
BigMack

LOL

Do you think one box will do the trick? :-)

30,931 posted on 02/28/2002 9:32:05 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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To: Isaiah_66_2
So are you telling me that it's evil for Rome to move pedophile priest from location to location, knowing they are peodphiles and are going to a new area with "fresh victims to prey on"? Is that evil or isn't it?

How many f***ing times do I have to tell you this?

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

I AM AGAINST THE ACTIONS THE LEADERS of THE CHURCH DID IN HANDLING THESE PEDOPHILES!

That should hold you for a while.

SD

30,932 posted on 02/28/2002 9:32:14 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Havoc, SoothingDave
And he cussed too. Did you see the little cuss characters ;)

Thats nothing look at this:

Dave: How many f***ing times do I have to tell you this?

Now that was a fruit if I ever saw one.

BigMack

30,933 posted on 02/28/2002 9:36:07 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Havoc
Methinks Dave isn't going to bother answering my last two posts to him. Seems pointing out where his argument is flawed makes him clam up and hide. Did you see the word Evil appearing in those statements regarding the homo issue.

See 30923. Asked and answered. I'm sorry your thesarus is broken. I'm sorry you are so stuck on the word "Evil" that you can't see that the acts are denounced much more strongly than this four letter word.

I repeat my challenge. Show me anything that violates natural law which is not evil.

Tick tock.

SD

30,934 posted on 02/28/2002 9:36:32 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
So Dave are you saying you are agianst the actions the leaders of the Church did in handling these pedophiles? :)

JM
30,935 posted on 02/28/2002 9:37:17 AM PST by JohnnyM
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To: JohnnyM
Are you sure that's what he said? Did he leave himself some wiggle room?
30,936 posted on 02/28/2002 9:38:56 AM PST by IMRight
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To: Isaiah_66_2
Do you think one box will do the trick? :-)

That or an enima with a 3/4" garden hose will do. :)

BigMack

30,937 posted on 02/28/2002 9:39:51 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: IMRight
Did he leave himself some wiggle room?

Well, I did fail to use the four letter word "evil." So maybe I better do it again.

Hey Isaih:

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

IT WAS EVIL

SD

30,938 posted on 02/28/2002 9:40:00 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Isaiah_66_2; RobbyS
We love the Church, warts and all.
We're particularly fond of barbeques. Can we have you for dinner? : )
30,939 posted on 02/28/2002 9:41:11 AM PST by eastsider
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To: SoothingDave
There you go spouting off without reading the full context and seeing things that aren't there again.

How many people are there in this "perfect clergy" of yours?

Notice dave, please pay special attention! The context was of those who practice homosexuality, pedophilia and other ongoing, habitual, continuous practice of sin without benefit of true repentance.

Ya see, there you go trying to poo poo away pedophile priests and other perverted clergy by making a strawman argument that just because they aren't perfect, they shouldn't be disallowed as clergy.

Would you allow a habitual murderer to be a priest?

I'm not saying one has to be perfect----Im saying they shouldn't be clergy when they are engaging in the ongoing, continuous, habitual practice of walking in darkness, whether it be homosexuality, pedophilia, fornication, adultery, stealing, murder, drunkenness, being a dope addict, etc, etc. One doesn't have to be "perfect", however, anyone in the clergy does have to hold a pretty high standard, Scripture says so, and that standard includes not being a pedophile, adulterer, fornicator, theif, murderer, drunkard, etc, etc.

30,940 posted on 02/28/2002 9:42:30 AM PST by Isaiah_66_2
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