The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[malakhi]

I would very much appreciate your opinion on it. Its pretty long so I don't expect a real quick response--but I hope in the next couple of days you might have some time. Thanks.

Bookmarked for later review.

[OLD REGGIE]

It was ommitted for brevity. Again, for brevity, explain to me what language you think the church used in Mass before Trent? And for the last 1000 or so years, prior to Vatican II?

Again for brevity;

Prior to 1550 (approximately) generally the vernacular.

After 1550 (approximately) until Vatican II, (approximately 400 years) Latin.

This might be difficult for you to comprehend, but I'll try. The fact that Latin was used in some places doesn't make it the "official" language. It became "official" after the Council of Trent. Do the arithmetic.

[malakhi]

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Bad translation.

He answered and said: 'Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.'

It was an angel.

Nebuchadnez'zar said, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed'nego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set at nought the king's command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God. (Daniel 3:28)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Talking about this thread going on for a yr., do you remember the first time you and I discussed an issue directly? You told me I was "wacked out." Hurt my feelings, I actually quit posting for a few days, I've gotten thicker skinned now thought:). But if you call me names again I'll tell Mack. He's bigger then you.

LOL. I remember that. I thought you were condemning me. We know each other better now. Did I really call you a name? Not that I'm not capable of it. I just don't remember getting that upset. Lol.

[eastsider]

Remember right after Sept 11th Louis Farahkken (sp) said he wanted proof that Osama Bin Laden was behind the bombing before he'd support the war? Well a couple of months went by and that videotape with Bin Laden and a few of his chronies came out.... Still wasn't enough proof for Louis.

On a related note, check out this thread.

[trad_anglican]

Apparently, if you believe that, you also must recognize that Constantine "started" the Roman Catholic Church.

Come on Dave, you know it's true. Everybody knows it, that's why no one even bothers to try to prove it. It's all there in the false decretals and the double secret vatican files that they say they'll share and then can't seem to find. Just come clean. You'll fell so much better about yourself. Just click your heels together 3 times and say "there's no church that's Rome, there's no church that's Rome."

[ksen]

I can tell that you've taken the passage out of context.

Rats, I was hoping you wouldn’t notice.

Who is the speaker here, and to whom is he speaking?

The words of Agur son of Jakeh of Massa. The man says to Ith'i-el, to Ith'i-el and Ucal: (Proverbs 30:1)

And what are the nature of his comments? They are rhetorical questions!

And who are they talking about?

Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name?

Has God ascended to heaven and come down? Nope.

Well yes He has, even if you discount the Incarnation. Who was talking and walking with Adam in the Garden? Who was that talking to Moses on Sinai? Who was that leading the Israelites through the wilderness in a pillar of cloud and fire? Who was that dwelling in the Holy of Holies?

And its in the past tense, so it cannot be a reference to Jesus.

God, and therefore Jesus, are eternal. They do not change. Everything they do has occurred, is occuring, will occur, from an eternal reference.

In the previous verse Agur sarcastically refers to his own lack of wisdom and understanding. Verse 4, then, is contrasting his own "lack of wisdom" with those who claim to have worldly wisdom. The "who" of verse 4 refers to "wise men" who put their own worldly understanding above God. It is saying "who are these people, and what have they done compared to what God has done?"

I think you are stretching here. The verse is not asking who said they COULD do these things, it is asking who DID do those things. The answer is obviously God.

In verses 5 and 6 Agur tells Ithiel and Ucal to rely on scripture rather than on worldly wisdom.

Aahh, it’s good to see Sola Scriptura has been around longer than the Renaissance.

This passage supports Havoc's argument against philosophy, but it does not support the idea of a divine son.

If you say so, but I think you are wrong. BTW, here’s some good advice, stay out of the woods near Mack’s house. ;^)

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You just said I was wacked out, Mack calls me worse, so don't worry about it:). Actually the conversation was about people following Benny Hinn, (see it left me so scared I remember it exactly). You mentioned you had a friend who followed Benny Hinn. I had said earlier that those people were not saved. I would say that differnt now-a-days. I would say they probably aren't saved:) I was sorry I had offended you.

There is probably a lesson to be learned here, but, something deep you know, but I don't know what it is. Probably that people are more careful about what they say when they get to know someone, which in reality might not be a good thing. I have noticed lately there are alot of things I don't post because I don't want to hurt feelings. Maybe that is why these discussions seem to be winding down a bit. We all know each other to well.

Becky

[malakhi]

Oh one more thing. The "Sons of God" in Job 1;6 is the same as "Sons of God" in Genesis 6;2. I think the Hebrew for "Sons of God" is Bnai Elohim which may infer divine qualities.

Behold, a son shall be born to you; he shall be a man of peace. I will give him peace from all his enemies round about; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days.
He shall build a house for My Name. He shall be My son, and I will be his Father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel for ever.' (1 Chronicles 22:9-10)

He said to me, `It is Solomon your son who shall build My house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. (1 Chronicles 28:6)

Is Solomon divine?

[eastsider]

Just click your heels together 3 times and say "there's no church that's Rome, there's no church that's Rome."

Should he do that before or after the witch skywrites, "Surrender JPII"?

[malakhi]

I had an OT professor who said that when you see LORD God, in the KJV BTW, that the second person of the Trinity is being referenced. While Lord GOD is referencing the first person of the Trinity. Just thought I'd share that with you.

I think you're better off looking at the Hebrew and seeing what name it uses. What your professor suggests is an artificial distinction that doesn't exist in the Hebrew.

[malakhi]

I tried to point out that we conduct ourselves in the name of YHWH, even carrying on your tradition of not mentioning the Name as such.

I see your point. Still, though, Ha-Shem refers only to the Father.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You just said I was wacked out, Mack calls me worse, so don't worry about it:). Actually the conversation was about people following Benny Hinn, (see it left me so scared I remember it exactly). You mentioned you had a friend who followed Benny Hinn. I had said earlier that those people were not saved. I would say that differnt now-a-days. I would say they probably aren't saved:) I was sorry I had offended you.

Probably made me mad cuz I gave my heart to the Lord in 1971 over in Vietnam. The person God used to make me aware told me as soon as I got home to find a church. Well, I didn't know any better and what I found was one of those "wacked out" (lol) Benny Hinn type of churchs. I stayed there for about 7 years before I saw the error. I think there are many like me still bound up into all that. I will say that there's no question I loved the Lord and there's no question some that are deceived by him do as well.

[OLD REGGIE]

And your snide comment that neither the priest or laity understand the Mass is perhaps colored too much by your own experience. It is an insult to the vast majority of Catholics who care enough to learn how to participate in the liturgy.

Oh! Wow! "It is an insult to the vast majority of Catholics who care enough to learn how to participate in the liturgy."

VAST MAJORITY? If you live in a dream world you can convince yourself of almost anything. Just don't try to spin this baloney in the real world.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh, and at that time you still thought PayNo was a man. We hadn't come out and told that there was 2 of us then. Would that have made a difference?, or would I have still been "wacked out"

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Is Solomon divine?

Is Solomon a Bnai Elohim?

[malakhi]

The same can be said for the Bible.

You think so; I obviously disagree. To use your analogy, its like a movie was made 50 years ago. Now, a studio decides to do a remake of this 'classic' movie. But they have their own ideas on how to do it. So they provide their interpretation of the original film. It may be a good movie in and of itself, but its not the original.

Without the New Testament, the Old Testament is incomplete.

I could not disagree with you more. You may wish to keep in mind that muslims think that the gospel is 'incomplete' without the koran.

It seems to be missing explanations and understanding. You can infer some things, but other things are a complete mystery.

Only because you haven't studied it on its own terms. Enroll in a bible study at a local orthodox or conservative synagogue, and you will find that the things that seem to you to be 'missing' are in fact not at all problematic.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Oh, and at that time you still thought PayNo was a man. We hadn't come out and told that there was 2 of us then. Would that have made a difference?, or would I have still been "wacked out"

No. Ask Tiki and Sarradipity. :-)

[DouglasKC]

Bad translation.
He answered and said: 'Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.'

Even that translation raises a question...an angel is the son of what gods?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Has God ascended to heaven and come down? Nope.

“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? …” (Job 38:4).

BigMack