The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[IMRight]

Sorry. As usual, SD said it better.

[SoothingDave]

To a non-Catholic or Orthodox Christian "grace" is a state of being. You are either in it or not.

What do you mean by "You are either in it (grace) or not"? Thanks.

I am sure I am not the best person to answer this, but I'll give it a go. People who consider grace to be digital (in or out, no inbetween) tend to view this age as one of "grace" versus the prior one of the "Law." If one does not accept Jesus then he is bound to obey the Ten Commandments and such and will be strictly judged for his transgressions. When one accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior, they are now considered "covered" by Christ's sacrifice and are in a state of grace. This means that their transgressions are not viewed against the Law and judged harshly, but rather their sins are forgiven when repented. Those living "in grace" do not fear being judged because they are assured that all they do is seen as the Righteousness of Christ.

SD

[eastsider]

My almost-four year old son is a huge baseball and Yankees fan.

As I've told you before, angelo, your son is wise beyond his years.

Arizona would be smart to shorten the rotation and let Schilling pitch games 1, 4 and 7.

There won't be a game 7.

Figure that Johnson will pitch two of the remaining games, and Arizona has a better chance than anyone else to beat the Yankees.

IMO, we've met our biggest challenge: the Mariners. I was at the final game on Monday night, and what it lacked in suspense (especially compared to Sunday's game!) it made up for in fan bonding. I have never seen this level of fan coordination from Yankees fans in chants, singing, etc. Reminded me of the old Expos games where the fans would sing in unison up in Montreal. (At least I understood the latter, seeing as my Canuck family has preserved the home-made recipes which we trot out over the holidays to wash down our meat pies : ) I thought the Mariners played better in the regular season.

I have a soft spot for the Diamondbacks, only because I lived in Phoenix for a few years. (That's a soft spot in my heart, angelo, not my head.) But if Oakland and Seattle succumbed to the Juggernaut, I can only imagine what will happen in the Series to an expansion team like the D'backs with a mere four-year history.

Any predictions on the outcome? I think it goes at least 6 games, but the Yankees win.

Arizona will be overwhelmed. Cf. my post of April 27 at 41:127: Yanks in 4.

[SoothingDave]

So based on what you believe, can you lose your salvation?? In other words, can I being saved lose my salvation and end up eternally separated from God?

Yes, sir. If salvation is based upon faith, and faith requires obedience, then we can surely fall out of faith by our disobedience.

Otherwise, all that talk about "the doers of the Law" being rewarded and Paul talking about "persevering" and "working out his salvation" are nonsense.

SD

[SoothingDave]

But if Oakland and Seattle succumbed to the Juggernaut, I can only imagine what will happen in the Series to an expansion team like the D'backs with a mere four-year history.

Well, since baseball is a game for stroking the egos of rich folks who can afford to blow a lot of money, I can see the "new" D'backs winning. Then following the trajectory of the Marlins. World Series champs in 2001, on the auction block by 2006.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Matthias succeeded Judas. Then in Acts 13 they ordained Paul and Barnabas. Barnabas also is called an Apostle, so that would make the count 14. They ordained other men like Timothy and Titus. These were not considered Apostles because they could not testify personally to Jesus' resurrection. See Acts 1. Nonetheless, they had authority comparable to what the Apostles had.

O.K. I agree to this point. We both agree the "twelve" is a misnomer. (I think we agree.) My unanswered question was, who were the logical successors of the Apostles?

I forget where and when I asked, but I know I did, maybe you can answer. The first election of a Bishop after the Accension was James; why isn't he called the first "Pope"?

[JohnnyM]

so if our salvation is works based then Christ's death on the Cross was meaningless?? If as you say you can lose salvation, then that implies that my "works" are responsible for my getting to heaven, because it is "my" works that lose it. If my works are responsible, then we are right back where we were before Christ died for us, and His death on the Cross is meaningless. We are saved by faith and not by works. And please lets not argue over semantics and the idea of what is works. Faith is not a work. Faith is faith. Works are actions that one does to gain favor or earn righteousness in God's eyes. Christ died because we cannot save ourselves. Christ died because we are utterly sinful. Christ died because our righteousness is as filthy rags. Christ did the work for us, so that we don't have to, and this salvation is ours if we believe.

JM

[SoothingDave]

The first election of a Bishop after the Accension was James; why isn't he called the first "Pope"?

Um. Cause Peter was already Pope?

The Papacy originated with the person of Peter. It went wherever he went. When he settled in Rome the Papacy attached itself to his successors in the office of Bishop of Rome.

SD

[SoothingDave]

so if our salvation is works based then Christ's death on the Cross was meaningless?? If as you say you can lose salvation, then that implies that my "works" are responsible for my getting to heaven, because it is "my" works that lose it.

I'll try again. Nothing we do can earn our way to Heaven. We have to accept the free gift and believe. Our actions can have the effect of us declining the free gift. By not believeing. By not obeying.

Nothing we do can cause us to merit Heaven. But things we do can cause us to merit Hell.

If my works are responsible, then we are right back where we were before Christ died for us, and His death on the Cross is meaningless.

Your works are not responsible, Christ is responsible. You must believe in him and this belief must not be empty. It must be accompanied by obedience to God's will. If you are not obedient, then you have a dead faith. I don't know any simpler way to express this.

Surely you don't think that you can just say "I believe in Christ" and do whatever you please and you are magically "saved" because of your empty words?

We are saved by faith and not by works. And please lets not argue over semantics and the idea of what is works. Faith is not a work. Faith is faith. Works are actions that one does to gain favor or earn righteousness in God's eyes.

And faith without works is dead. Remember that?

SD

[eastsider]

World Series champs in 2001, on the auction block by 2006.

D'backs: NL champs in 2001, end of story. Their defeat by the World Champion New York Yankees on October 31 will see them slithering back to AZ tout de suite. Serves 'em right for not observing Daylight Savings.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Without you I wouldn't have them:) (or my horse, HeHe). Need I say more.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Without you I wouldn't have them:) (or my horse, HeHe). Need I say more.

I think you have some 'splaining to do. :-)

SD

[JohnnyM]

Surely you don't think that you can just say "I believe in Christ" and do whatever you please and you are magically "saved" because of your empty words?

I don't think that. If someone genuinely believes that Christ, the Son of God, died for his sins and rose again on the 3rd day, then he is saved. That person may for the rest of his life struggle with sin, but he will not lose his salvation.

Faith without works is dead is the most misunderstood passage, i think in all the Bible, because they use it to defend works based salvation. This statement is true, but it does not concern "my" works but Christ working in me. Because even if I am saved, all works done in my own strength and will are still seen as worthless in God's eyes, it is only Christ working through me that is pleasing to God. Only Christ is pleasing to God. If Christ is not in me, then he cannot work through me, and my faith is dead. But once we accept Christ, then He is in us and works through us. We are a new creation, alive to Christ and dead to sin, and there is nothing I can do to reverse that process. Once I am saved, I am adopted into the family of Christ, joint heirs with Him, and nothing, nothing can change that.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

I have no disagrement with either of you.

It is not easy to generalize, BUT I believe, in general, the average Minister will expect his congregation to read the Bible. I suspect this expectation is not as great in the RC Church. I remember, in the old days (pre Vatican II) we had Masses every hour. What with the need of filling and emptying the Church every 45 minutes, the Mass was one big, uncomprehensible, rush. I hope it is not still that way.

[IMRight]

He gave you the kids and the horse... is this a "works" based marriage? Things must have been tough before the kids showed up. :)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

My mother passed away about 11 yrs. ago. My dad is still living, and remarried about 7 yrs, ago. My parents where avid catholic, but didn't seem to know anymore about the catholic faith then what I did, and I have been told on these threads, that most of what I thaought I was taught was wrong. They both graduated from a catholic school in the 40's. I asked my dad a few years ago if he thought he would go to heaven when he died and he said well he hoped so he was a pretty good guy:( He is too but when we started going to a baptist church he told us he did not ever want to talk about religion with us becasue it would cause trouble, and he didn't want to hear anything about what the bible says, that was for the priests to tell him. I remember my mother getting upset with me when she found me reading the one bible we had in the house when I was in high school, she told me I shouldn't do that I wouldn't understand it, it was for the priests to tell us. That is pretty much the whole attitude of my extended family. I'm pretty much the odd ball in the family, (baptist, live in the country, like outdoor life, no career other then mother and housewife, which is all I ever wanted to be, homeschooled my kids,and ride horses:) pretty bad,huh.:) They are firm believers that catholics are the only ones going to heaven, and are pretty hurt that I have become a turncoat. I'm rambling now so I'd better stop.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

The Papacy originated with the person of Peter. It went wherever he went. When he settled in Rome the Papacy attached itself to his successors in the office of Bishop of Rome.

Oh! I understand now. That explains why it is spelled out so clearly in Scripture.

[IMRight]

If someone genuinely believes that Christ, the Son of God, died for his sins and rose again on the 3rd day, then he is saved.

And Catholics disagree with exactly which part of that?

[JohnnyM]

I don't disagree with Catholics on this point, its the losing salvation that I disagree with. Its the old works vs faith argument :)

JM