Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Since you have the "seal of God" do you no longer sin? And why does you having the "seal" preclude your wife from going to hell?
Nope. God commanded burnt offerings to take place only in the location He designated. The last place He designated for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem. In the absence of the Temple, it would be a violation of the Law to offer sacrifices.
Secondly, as you mentioned this method is an imperfect means of atonement, but Christ is the perfect means. He who had no sin, became sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God. His blood has cleansed us from all sin. His sacrifice was perfect. So there is no longer any need to make additional sacrifices for our sin, because He was the perfect sacrifice for all time.
Well, yes, you have done a fine job describing the Christian belief. However, this is not what the Hebrew scriptures teach. Let me break it down point by point.
1. Human sacrifice is forbidden by the Law. Therefore the death of Jesus could not be an acceptable sacrifice to God.
2. Some 'minor' points about blood sacrifices. In order to fulfill the Law, they must be physically unblemished, and they must be performed in the Temple. Neither of these conditions was met by Jesus's death.
3. This is a biggie. No other person can atone for your sins. This could not be more explicit:
The person who sins, he alone shall die. A child shall not share
the burden of a parent’s guilt, nor shall a parent share the
burden of a child’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous
shall be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked
shall be accounted to him alone.
Moreover, if the wicked one repents of all the sins that he
committed and keeps all My laws and does what is just and right,
he shall not die. None of the transgressions he committed shall
be remembered against him; because of the righteousness he has
practiced, he shall live. Is it my desire that a wicked person
shall die?--says the Lord God. It is rather that he shall turn
back from his ways and live. (Ezekiel 18:20-23)
without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
The author of Hebrews is wrong. Let's look at the passage from which this is supposedly derived:
[10] "If any man of the house of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.
[12] Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood. (Leviticus 17:10-12)
The focus of this passage is not atonement, but rather is about dietary laws, specifically the prohibition against eating blood. NOWHERE does it even suggest that blood sacrifice is the only means of atonement (read the passage again!). The reason it doesn't is that such a statement is simply untrue! There are many other types of sacrifice described in the Law for atonement for sin (offerings of grain or treasure, for example).
Furthermore, sacrifices were not simply for the purpose of atoning for sin. They were also offered for thanksgiving and for ritual purification.
For the most part, sacrifices only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, sacrifices cannot atone for malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, sacrifices have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.
In the absence of the sacrificial system, forgiveness for sin comes from repenting and turning back to God and his Law. Asking for forgiveness from those we have wronged. If possible, making right our wrongs. God promises repeatedly in the Hebrew scriptures to forgive those who turn to him. There are passages in the Hebrew scriptures which explicitly state that sacrifice is NOT necessary for atonement:
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:17)
To do righteousness and justice
is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. (Proverbs 21:3)
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. (Hosiah 6:6)
Sacrifice and offering thou dost not desire;
but thou hast given me an open ear.
Burnt offering and sin offering
thou hast not required. (Psalm 40:6)
[6] "With what shall I come before the LORD,
and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
[7] Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my first-born for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"
[8] He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:6-8)
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
This directly contradicts the Torah.
And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. (Leviticus 4:26)
Since you are a jew and you don't beleive that Jesus is the Messiah, then this probably means little to you, so I ask you, how can you atone for sin without the shedding of blood, without a sacrifice to God?
Repent. Ask forgiveness of those we have wronged (God and/or others). Seek to make it right. Pretty much exactly what Christians must do when they sin.
Why is it so important to you that we affirm, like you, that Mary is the "mother of God"? Is it the password for some secret sect? Why must she be the subject of every sentence? Why is it not enough for you or the R catholic church for us to say JESUS is GOD? The way some venerate her, it reminds me of that goddess, Isis.
I thought I answerd this yesterday? We want you to affirm it because it is true and because it will be one instance in which we can agree. It is also one instance in which the Catholics are not wrong. Can you imagine it?
BTW, Mary is seemingly "the subject of every sentence" here because we are defending her and misconceptions about what we teach. You yourself can see how Protestants continue to think we teach that she pre-exists God or created God. We have the right and duty to respond and to try to teach what we actually teach and not what the misguided think we teach.
SD
Et tu? Yes, Virgina, the Pope is Catholic. And we his loyal minions espouse the same ideas.
(Can anybody explain why this is mystifying to the Protestants?)
SD
YES YOU DO!
I know you meant that sarcasticly, but it is true. At the very least you need to accept the free gift of salvation. Then you have to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in building God's Kingdom. Yes. Yes. You play a role in your own salvation.
SD
Can anybody explain why this is mystifying to the Protestants?
I found this to be pretty funny, too.
More common in Reform Judaism. Conservative Judaism began to allow female rabbis in the mid-1980s, but there aren't yet very many of them. Orthodox Judaism does not and never will ordain women as rabbis. I agree with the Orthodox on this. Even aside from the scriptural and traditional arguments against ordaining women, the practical consequences have not demonstrated that this is a good idea. Maybe there is not a strong correlation between the ordination of women and doctrinal heterodoxy, but it sure seems that way.
I gave one example in my #2123 above:
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:17)
A 'broken and contrite heart' is an 'acceptable sacrifice'. Asking forgiveness is part of repenting. Making right what we have done wrong (providing restitution if we have stolen something, for example) is justice (see about 'justice' in Proverbs 21:3). Besides, we wouldn't exactly have a 'broken and contrite heart' if we kept our ill-gotten gains, would we?
What an understatment. You are in the running for tomorrow's award. :-)
SD
No real explaination there. Here's a little snippet from your "explaination" ...
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men (emphasis mine).
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ALL: This was a good lead-in for today's readings ...
| Tuesday, October 23, 2001 Saint John of Capistrano, priest - Optional Memorial |
||
|
From wau.org ...
Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you were unsure what was expected of you? Such an experience can be intimidating and unpleasant. Fortunately, Jesus doesn't leave us in the dark about how we should be living as we await his return. We are always to be "dressed for action," with our lamps lit (Luke 12:35). This means not just keeping constant watch for our Master, but also keeping an eye on ourselves and our faith life. One practical way to do this "faith check" is to ask ourselves some basic questions about key areas of our lives. This regular review can encourage us to greater faithfulness--provided we do it with confidence in our Master's merciful love and not fearfully, in expectation of his wrath. Here are a few suggestions.
Examine your relationships with family and friends. Ask yourself: Have I had any unsettling conversations that caused me to become resentful or to break with anyone? Did someone make hurtful remarks that I need to forgive or address? Should I repent of anything I said? Is there wisdom I need to resolve certain issues or to bring healing into a relationship? Bring these situations to the Lord. If necessary, ask him to forgive you. Take responsibility for any division you have caused through gossip, criticism, or negative humor. Ask for wisdom and healing for situations where you don't know how to proceed.
Examine your relationship with the Lord. Ask yourself: Do I pray? Do I turn my heart to God and talk to him throughout the day? Am I honest with him? Is there something God is inviting me to surrender to him more deeply? Am I growing in awareness of my need for God's mercy? Am I willing to receive it?
Examine your responsibilities. Ask yourself: Do I aim to be a faithful servant as I carry out the work God has entrusted to me? Do I see the Lord in the people I encounter every day? Do my actions convey God's love and warmth to others? Visualize yourself talking with the Lord about your plans and work. Look ahead to specific situations you expect to encounter and ask him to be with you.
Lord Jesus, strengthened by your Holy Spirit, I stand ready to greet you when you come again. With all the saints and angels, I cry, 'Come, Lord, come!'"
The parable of the talents seems to fit.
This is the same logic as al_c. Then lets remove all evidence of Christ. Let's destroy all the Bible's. All the churches. All the Christians. If there is no evidence of Christ, then we can all share in the bounty of heaven. This is simply untrue. This is what you are saying. You are saying God cannot reveal His Son to everyone. That he can only get to a handful because He has a busy schedule, so those He doesn't reach have an immunity clause. Don't think so. This is not Scriptural.
I see the problem. No one is saying that those who are ignorant of Christ through no fault of their own gets "immunity," gets a free pass into Heaven. Not in the least. No sir. Does that make you feel differently?
Those who through no fualt of their own are ignorant of Christ will be judged based on what parts of the natural law they could discern from nature and how well they could follow it. Doing this without the help of Christ is very difficult and in no way is this considered a "gimme" or a "get out of hell free" card. On the contrary one who doesn't know Christ (all together now "through no fault of his own") has a very steep hill to climb.
But we don't hold it to be impossible either. That makes an unjust God.
As you have intuited in a somewhat contradictory way, God does indeed use churches, Bibles, etc. as a way of spreading His truth. He doesn't need to, He could make an announcment tomorrow on all cable channels if He wanted. But He likes to have us help.
If we humans have not spread the Gospel to some remote area it is not the poor inhabitant's fault that he is ignorant of Christ.
SD
UMMM, Catholics, does God routinely kill innocent people?
Question begging.
Hardly. It is a direct quotation from scripture.
If the New Covenant is valid, that rule is out the window along with a whole bunch of other rules.
God is not a man to be capricious,
Or mortal to change His mind.
Would he speak and not act,
Promise and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19)
God did not set up a bunch of arbitrary rules, only to throw them out the window when He changes His mind. If God is capricious, then what value are His promises to you?
Will you please quit over-dramatizing the topic? Nobody has even come close to suggesting these wild-eyed notions.
This is what you are saying.
Putting words in our mouths again?
You are saying God cannot reveal His Son to everyone. That he can only get to a handful because He has a busy schedule, so those He doesn't reach have an immunity clause.
You are saying that God's grace is limited to this world. That is not scriptual.
al_c: In response to your question concerning Sodom. There seems to be a degree of punishment involved here. Just like those who teach will be judged more severely than those who don't, than those who have seen more signs of Christ will be punished more severely. It says that if those in Sodom had seen the signs performed in Capernaum, than that city would have been still standing. So Capernaum has seen more of the revelation of God and yet they still did not repent, so their punishment would be more than that of Sodom's, but Sodom still has no excuse for their sin.
My point exactly! This is an example of the expanse of God's grace toward all mankind. Those with knowledge will be held to a higher degree of responsibility. Those with limited or no knowledge will be held to a lower level. We will all be judged accordingly. Nobody is cut off from the grace of God. Nobody.
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