Breaking: Ron Paul introduces Marque and Reprisal Bills in House

Ron Paul | 10/10/01 | demidog

[Demidog]

I just received a call from my contact at Ron Paul's office.

Ron Paul today introduced two bills into the House of Representatives which would authorize the State Department to issue letters of Marque authorizing privateers to attack and collect assets from terrorists who commit hostile acts against the U.S.

This means that you (yes you personallywould be able to help to bring down the rogue and nationless enemies of the United States provided you meet a few requirements.

The precendence for this bill is based on specific Constitutional powers and was seen as a remedy by our founders for those nationaless terrorists who committed acts against U.S. merchant ships on the high seas. We're dealing with Pirates here and a significant effort has been made by Ron Paul's team to create a legal definition for "Air Piracy" which would include hijackings.

The text of the Bills have not been published yet but I will update everyone the moment the text becomes available.

The Bills are: H.R. 3074 and H.R. 3076

Please call your congressman and tell him that you want them to either sponsor or support this bill.

[Demidog]

Easy:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

There are only certain powers delegated to the U.S. (and take note of that word delegated as it is extremely important for other reasons.)

The powers listed in the Constitution are explicit and exclusionary as stated by the tenth amendment. You might imagine that the Congress and President have the power to send a standing army all over the world to impose our will on foreign nations but I can assure you it is all in your head. It's not in the constitution.

If it was there you could easily cite the passage. You cannot.

[Dog Gone]

That does not in any way state or imply that there are no implied powers. It never states that, and the statement you quoted certainly doesn't.

You still have not directly answered my point about the armed forces, either. Under your absurd interpretation of the Constitution they have no duties. Not to fight invasion, not to enforce laws. Nothing.

Under your interpretation, they have no responsibility and are constitutionally prohibitted from ever having one.

[Demidog]

That does not in any way state or imply that there are no implied powers.

It absolutely and unequavocaly does sir, and I notice that you again fail to provide a cite for the authorization you believe exists.

For instance, where in the constitution does the power of Congress exist to ban guns? It's not there. The founders were carefull not to give any powers to any branch of government that they did not want it to have.

In fact that is one of the reasons that Madison argued against the bill of rights. The bill of rights is wholly un-necessary because there is no prohibitive power set forth in the constitution for any of the acts protected by the amendments.

The tenth amendment speaks to the fact that there are ZERO implied powers. All of the powers posessed and enjoyed by the federal government are laid out within the constitution.

[Dog Gone]

Look, if the Constitution had meant to imply that there were no implied powers, it would have said so. I don't dispute at all what the Tenth Amendment says, but you're reading into it something that isn't there.

You're asking me to find a clause that says there are implied powers. There isn't one. There also isn't one that say that there are no implied powers.

But your interpretation leads to absurd results, something you continue to refuse to discuss.

[znix]

I don't dispute at all what the Tenth Amendment says..."

Then what the hell does the 10th Amendment say to you, if not limiting powers?

[Dog Gone]

It's about limiting Federal Power. In those areas where the Federal Government wasn't given the power, the states or the people were. That is not a difficult concept.

What apparently is too difficult for some here to understand is that by necessity, not to mention common sense, those powers given to the Federal Government necessarily include some duties that are included in those enumerated powers which are implied, and not specifically set out.

The Constitution provides for the Federal Government to have an army, but it doesn't set out the duties for it.

Some people here believe that the army is prohibited from doing anything, because the Constitution doesn't provide for duties. I argue that our Founding Fathers were not complete idiots, and they didn't call for an army that can't be used for anything except parades.

I argue that those duties are implied, regardless of the 10th Amendment.

If this concept is too difficult to understand, please let me know.

[Demidog]

Look, if the Constitution had meant to imply that there were no implied powers, it would have said so

It did. It's called the tenth amendment. You apparently believe that it doesn't really mean what it says.

Then of course neither does the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. etc.

And I suppose you can explain why Roosevelt or Wilson even bothered to obtain a declarations of war. Remember, they didn't even need them according to you. They could have just sent our troops anywhwere they wished and for whatever reason they could invent.

[Demidog]

In those areas where the Federal Government wasn't given the power, the states or the people were.

Great. So where did the Federal government get its power and where is it written? What the tenth amendment states is if it isn't written in the Constitution it doesn't belong to the Federal government.

Very explicit. There are no implied powers.

[Dog Gone]

And I suppose you can explain why Roosevelt or Wilson even bothered to obtain a declarations of war. Remember, they didn't even need them according to you. They could have just sent our troops anywhwere they wished and for whatever reason they could invent.

Use your head. Why does any nation declare war? I've already told you above, but you didn't comprehend it, apparently.

[Dog Gone]

It's called the tenth amendment. You apparently believe that it doesn't really mean what it says.

I believe exactly what it says. Ironically, it is YOU who is reading an implication into it.

Please answer my question. What does the Constitution permit the armed forces (not the Militia) to do under the Constitution?

If you can't do so, then please explain why our Founding Fathers established them.

Your refusal to answer this question so far is astounding.

[Dog Gone]

There are no implied powers.

So you've said. And each time you've said it, you're wrong.

[Demidog]

Tell me what law established the Armed services and then tell me what it specifically says about them in the constitution and stop pretending it's all about the militia.

I'm not reading any implied meaning into the 10th. It is extremely plain and explicit.

[Demidog]

And each time you've said it, you're wrong.

Of course. That's why you've provided so many cites for your position.

[Dog Gone]

No, look it's you who is saying that the Constitution is the straitjacket without anything being implied. The creation of the Army and Navy is explicitly provided for in Article 1 Section 8.

Now, you go read that and come back and tell me what they are permitted to do under the Constitution.

[Demidog]

The creation of the Army and Navy is explicitly provided for in Article 1 Section 8.

Exactly. And it also provides the power for directing them and for what they may be directed as I stated earlier. Three things. We've been over this before. If the President can only direct them to defend the nation and the Congress holds only the power to declare war then where is the authorization to use them for anything other than what is explicitly stated?

Your argument isn't supported by the law. Drop the issue of the military for a moment and explain where else there are implied powers and on what basis you make this claim.

[Dog Gone]

Of course. That's why you've provided so many cites for your position.

You've provided none for yours. The Tenth Amendment says nothing about implied powers.

Common sense is on my side. 200 years of Supreme Court opinions on are my side.

So far I haven't seen anything to support yours, except your insistence that the 10th Amendment says something that it doesn't.

The powers that aren't given to the Feds are reserved to the states. And everything the Fed does has to have a basis in the Constitution. We are in complete agreement on that.

What we are in complete disagreement over is whether the Constitution is a set of broad principles. I know that it is, and you say that it isn't.

[strela]

Being a privateer wasn't all beer and skittles. There's even a song on the subject:

Oh the year was 1778
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
A letter of marque came from the King
To the scummiest vessel I'd ever seen

CHORUS: God (expletive; ed.) them all! I was told, we'd cruise the seas for American gold.
We'd fire no guns! Shed no tears!
I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers.

O, Elcid Barrett cried the town
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
For twenty brave men, all fishermen, who
Would make for him, the Antelope's crew.

CHORUS

The Antelope sloop was a sickening sight.
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
She'd a list to the port and her sails in rags
And the cook in the scuppers with the staggers and jags

CHORUS

On the King's birthday we put to sea
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
We were ninety-one days to Montego Bay
Pumping like madmen all the way

CHORUS

On the ninety-sixth day we sailed again
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
When a bloody great Yankee hove in sight
With our cracked four pounder we made to fight

CHORUS

The Yankee lay low down with gold
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
She was broad and fat and loose in stays
But to catch her took the Antelope two whole days

CHORUS

Then at length we stood two cables away
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
Our cracked four pounders made an awful din
But with one fat ball the Yankee stove us in

CHORUS

The Antelope shook and pitched on her side
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
Barrett was smashed like a bowl of eggs
And the main truck carried off both me legs

CHORUS

So here I am in my twenty third year
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now!)
It's been six years since we sailed away
And I just made Halifax yesterday

CHORUS

[Dog Gone]

Drop the issue of the military for a moment and explain where else there are implied powers and on what basis you make this claim.

Okay, the Constitution provides that Congress shall provide for a Post Office. Nowhere does it say that Congress shall authorize postal employees or home delivery or the issuance of postage stamps. Unconstitutional?

Well, that same section ends with this clause:

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Well, in my mind, that gives Congress the approval to authorize whatever they want in furtherance of those broad powers given to the Federal Government.

It's implied that the Federal Government can issue postage stamps, even though it doesn't say so.

[Demidog]

Well, in my mind, that gives Congress the approval to authorize whatever they want in furtherance of those broad powers given to the Federal Government

You must be kidding. It says right in the quote you provided that they can only create legislation based on the powers that were already enumerated. Thus, of course, since the power to create a post office was granted, then the details of delivering mail are simply to be worked out via legislation.

And in the case of the military, the purpose is the general power of defense. The purpose of the military would not therefore be agressions abroad.

Had that been so, they would have specified. What they specified was defense and thus a military and Navy was found an appropriate and legal end to the mean of defense.

Explicit. Listed powers. Your argument has so far not refuted a thing I have said on the matter.

[Dog Gone]

Well lookie here. You're already agreeing that mention of a Post Office implied that delivery of the mail is just a legislative detail.

And now the armed forces have an implied reason for existing, i.e., defense. Never mind that the Militia was explicitly given that responsibility.

There's hope for you, yet.