[annalex]

Please contribute to this forum here. May it continue to be the voice of reason amidst the hysteria and gloom.

Please drop me a note if you want off the list, or if you are presently off and want on (the limit is ten volley bumps). The previous posts are on my Freeper profile.

The previous thread, and the last thread under the Pursuit of Liberty label, is Pursuit of Liberty: Right to Roam or Licence to Trespass?. The topic of property rights in the context of natural rights will be resumed.

The bumps are from The Song of Roland in the translation of Charles Scott Moncrief.

[annalex]

Marvellous is the battle now and grand,
The Franks there strike, their good brown spears in hand.

[annalex]

Then had you seen such sorrowing of clans,
So many a slain, shattered and bleeding man!
Biting the earth, or piled there on their backs!
The Sarrazins cannot such loss withstand.

[annalex]

Within himself he says all quietly:
"This Sarrazin great heretick meseems,
Rather I'ld die, than not slay him clean,
Neer did I love coward nor cowardice."

[annalex]

Then says Rollanz: "I'll wind this olifant,
If Charles hear, where in the pass he stands,
I pledge you now they will return, the Franks."

[annalex]

Says Oliver: "Great shame would come of that
And a reproach on every one, your clan,
That shall endure while each lives in the land,
When I implored, you would not do this act;
Doing it now, no raise from me you'll have:
So wind your horn but not by courage rash,
Seeing that both your arms with blood are splashed."

[annalex]

Then says Rollant: "Strong it is now, our battle;
I'll wind my horn, so the King hears it, Charles."

[annalex]

Says Oliver: "That act were not a vassal's.
When I implored you, comrade, you were wrathful.
Were the King here, we had not borne such damage.
Nor should we blame those with him there, his army."

[annalex]

"Sir Oliver, and you, Sir Rollant, both,
For God I pray, do not each other scold!
No help it were to us, the horn to blow,
But, none the less, it may be better so;
The King will come, with vengeance that he owes;
These Spanish men never away shall go.
Our Franks here, each descending from his horse,
Will find us dead, and limb from body torn;
They'll take us hence, on biers and litters borne;
With pity and with grief for us they'll mourn;
They'll bury each in some old minster-close;
No wolf nor swine nor dog shall gnaw our bones."

[annalex]

Rollant hath set the olifant to his mouth,
He grasps it well, and with great virtue sounds.
High are those peaks, afar it rings and loud,
Thirty great leagues they hear its echoes mount.

[TheDon]

I have been greatly disappointed by the nonsense being put forth by a couple of libertarian commentators since September 11th. Namely, Harry Browne and Larry Elder.

From their comments, I can only hope that their ideas regarding foreign policy never get the chance to be implemented.

[Benoit Baldwin]

?!!!

[x]

Your criticism of the Rockwellites is on target. But, in my opinion, this goes too far:

Go on the offensive: invade countries, topple regimes, install friendly governments. For every mullah out there, afraid of his own women, we have a General MacArthur. Godspeed.

As does the "Song of Roland" analogy. Get the terrorists who did this by all means, but Holy War isn't a good prescription. It will alienate allies, provoke the hatred we seek to dispel and leave us isolated. I can understand your anger and feel angry myself, but if we can achieve our goals without a thirty or hundred years war to subjugate other countries I would count that a victory. McArthur was an admirable man and leader with commendable virtues, but I'd want to avoid another savage racial, religious or ideological war. I don't think we need a war of cultures, a Stalingrad or an Iwo Jima to get the killers. It would only complicate and compromise the necessary military operations.

Total war ends up overshooting the mark. Total war for Christianity or America may end up benefiting World Government, or Multinational corporations, secular humanism or other powers which exploit it to achieve their ends. What triumphs in long wars aren't the values of the boys who fight them or the folks back home, but the managerial apparatus that's formed to organize the war -- or those who stay out entirely and pick up the spoils afterwards.

During the Gulf War, the Wall Street Journal advocated the course you support here. It might have been the right course, but I'm not sure that all their reasons and expectations for this plan would be shared by all of us. Kill the murders, but don't throw away young Americans on a plan to remake the world as a monoculture.

[I am still Casey]

The perpetrators of this atrocity are organized: they are a country in all but geography.

Well stated.

...a citizen database is a virtual certainty...

Chilling.

At most we can say that a national ID and a citizen database are dangerous tools in the hands of a hostile government. But they are not necessarily violations of individual rights per se; their misuse is.

And that's the problem with the entire idea.

[sourcery]

Well said! And I agree at the 99% level. The areas of minor disagreement aren't even worth mentioning.

[takenoprisoner]

I have a contribution as well.

We will overcome and you will be our slaves. We will be your masters. You will do our bidding. You will bow before us. You will kiss our feet. You will suck our fort dix at our command!

And if that ain't enough, your mothers and your daughters will suck our fort dix til we are satisfied!

[AKbear]

Nicely said, very nicely said. However on one point:

No libertarian can seriously say that a private transaction that happens between the airline and the passenger is a matter of rights.

You are right except their policies are driven by law (atually regulation, but that is another story). The airlines should also have the right to allow armed passengers, and place any restrictions on them they see fit. Instead, the government puts the restrictions on them and they have to go along.

[Storm Orphan]

While I quibble with a minor assertion here and there, I believe you are one of the
best writers and one of the deepest thinkers on Free Republic.

Your disavowal of the ostrich mentality of the Lew Rockwells and Harry Brownes
among us libertarians is indeed on target.

Well done, Annalex.

[packrat01]

America is uniquely dedicated to the proposition of individual freedom.

A not insignificant correction:

America used to be uniquely dedicated to the proposition of individual freedom.

and

Any impeding of the government's warmaking function is an assault on individual rights.

That may be the case today. Time will tell if abuses of liberty, in the name of liberty, will be forthcoming.

[l0newolf]

The important thing is that nothing in our foreign policy was aggressive in nature. The worst, the cruelest blunders of the Clinton's administration were reactions, -- often, misguided or self-serving reactions, -- to someone else's greater cruelty. This war is between civilizations. In that it is similar to the Cold War. It is not between nations, -- it is between ideologies.

The firest line is too absurd to even make a comment about. The second assertion is bogus inasmuch as Clinton is as much a stooge to the NWO as Bush is. His "blunders" were cold, calculated acts meant to demoralize and demonize, no different than Bush's actions against Saddam.

The cold war was an invention of the money power to ensure a raison d'etre for high taxes, inflation and the continued participation of the USG in "foreign entanglements".

Set aside the patriotic emotions sweeping the country and you are left with a lingering suspicion that not all is as seems. if those of us who listen to subtle undertones of glabalism that underscored Bush's speech with reservations and suspicion are silenced then the only tune playing is that of the NWO piper.

America was NOT invaded, it was attacked. The invasion has been in progress for a long time, and it can be directly attributed to INS policies that have been in place for years. The WTC suicide attack marks the absolute failure of the federal government's first and foremost obligation to defend our shores and our people. The hubris of action and financial handouts following in it's wake is the actions of guilty men, covering up their "incompetence". Or was it?

Flame away war-mongers.

[Lev]

Anyone can rightfully refuse service to a customer without identification.

Absolutely. But this is not what is happening, is it? Private parties will be FORCED to refuse service to a customer without identification.
Regards.