Posted on 01/04/2005 2:34:33 PM PST by churchillbuff
I didn't say they were, did I? I said the men made a choice of one over the other, and that is a true statement. You know it. These men were told they could have one or the other. First, they chose the priesthood. Then they changed their minds and chose marriage. It may be that what they really want is both, but they aren't currently offered that option, and they did in fact make a conscious choice of one over the other.
It is true that the Church doesn't have to force them to choose, but the fact is they do. I personally agree with the Church's reasons for doing so.
>>>>> Lay Catholics, by and large, no longer value celibacy in their priests the way they once did, especially when they see married men performing clerical duties.
Some lay Catholics anyway. Obviously you don't speak for all of us, and even for committed American Catholics, I'm not sure the "by and large" is accurate.
You view the issue from an secularized American lens (or modernist Catholic if you prefer that term), and you make the all to common mistake of thinking the rest of the world agrees with you. I don't think that's a warranted assumption.
>>>>Oldironsides reaction is the reaction of every other Catholic I've ever had this discussion with.
You have discussed the issue online with a number of us, and we don't all have that reaction.
patent
>>>Hope you had great holydays.
No, but I had a blessed Christmas. ;-) Hope you did as well.
patent
In the early 80's I considered being a Catholic priest, but I wanted to marry as well, so I left the Catholic religion altogether. Had I known about this loophole, things may have turned out different.
If that's the question you are asking, you have no business recruiting for a Church. Being a priest isn't about girl friends, its about service and dedication to God.
This is a huge part of the problem. Here in the West everything is about sex. We (and you in your posting) treat the priesthood in terms of who they are sleeping with (or not sleeping with) but that is far outside what a priest is.
As human beings, we are not limited to our sexuality. We are not defined by our sexualality, contrary to what the valueless liberal lobby and the secular left wants you to believe. So long as you buy into their style of thinking, that we must consider sexuality first, then by definition you can't understand celibacy or a true priesthood.
Its a vocation, not a dating club. Treating it like the latter gives rise to all manner of problems as we've recently seen.
patent
>>>>>>The Maronite right is typically practiced in a less sex obsessed society than the US.
So, are you suggesting that becuase our society is obsessed by sex, that our Church must be too? That because our society is corrupt, that we must let our priests marry? I'd suggest the opposite, myself. We ought not let a corrupt society take control of the Church.
patent
>>>The only vocation in the Catholic Church that is growing is the one that accepts mature married men as candidates.
That isn't true. I've cited these statistics to you before, and you have long been on notice that priestly vocations in the Church are growing. You never care to remember that.
patent
You are accusing him of overstating his case (which is probably a fair accusation), but then you do the same. How can you know what these priests were called to? Discerning a vocation isn't something where most people can readily look at the man and say this one is called to this or that. Unless you have a special gift for reading souls, I'm left to assume you are merely reading the sad state of affairs today and making an assumption.
However, that assumption is unwarranted. A man may have sinned by having an affair while in the priesthood -- as so many of our now married priests did. These sins do not mean that he didn't have a vocation, just that he didn't life up to it. If I were to have an affair and cheat on my wife, would that mean I hadn't been called to the married life? Of course not. My sins do not change what my vocation was.
Like you I see the current sad state of affairs and make guesses about things. I see the number of late vocations, men who had a career they are now leaving to enter the seminary, and I think that for a time so many men were called, but ignored it, or missed the signs. Now, they are starting to hear the call, and returning. But I can't know that for sure, its just a guess.
We cannot know how many men were called to the celibate priesthood. Only God can know that.
patent
>>>My reference was a bit over the top, but I happen to believe that the vast majority of 24 year old men are too immature to commit to celibacy, and the attrition rate of men who are ordained at that age proves my contention.
Immaturity can certainly be a factor, but it is not the only factor so the attrition rate does not, by itself, prove your claim about the vast majority. Poor formation, a secular culture that the priests are tossed into, and poor spiritual guidance, all things far to prevalent in modern seminaries, can obviously play a role as well.
patent
">>>Hope you had great holydays.
"No, but I had a blessed Christmas. ;-) Hope you did as well."
Are not Christmas through the Epiphany holydays? ;-)
sitetest
Yes. You are, however, making one big mistake. You are taking me too seriously. Almost as seriously as I usually take myself. Its not worth it, trust me.
Oh, and I had to work through a couple of those holy days, so they weren't all great.
God bless,
patent
Dear patent,
"Yes. You are, however, making one big mistake. You are taking me too seriously."
So you think. ;-)
"Oh, and I had to work through a couple of those holy days, so they weren't all great."
Better to have too much work than not enough.
It's good to see you here once in a while.
sitetest
Very well said! Many people agitate against the celibate priesthood because they assume, together with many in our increasingly corrupt society, that sexual pleasure is the highest good of human existence. They hate the celibate priesthood for the same reason they hate the Church's teachings on human sexuality.
The celibate priesthood has served the Roman Catholic Church well for centuries. There is no need to abandon it now.
That's very debatable! :^)
That's almost like saying celibate men are more holy than married men. Besides... I know many retired clergy that work part time. Is the service they perform, because it is not 24/7, any less of a good for the Body of Christ? Of course not! And to say that anything other than celibacy is less, is to mock those thousands of married clergy both past and present. Someone posted that this is a discipline. Absolutely...and disciplines can change. The Eastern rites kept the old way -- optional celibacy. The Latin rite could revert and its something that should be open to debate amongst the magisterium.
Deacon Francis
He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
You and I have been of like mind regarding optional celibacy in the Latin rite for many years, my friend. Considering how many rites with optional celibacy are still in communion with Rome, however, why shouldn't men with vocations both to the priesthood and to marriage simply change rites? That way, the Latin rite in America could simply relax its stranglehold on the other rites' exercise of optional celibacy without relaxing its own discipline of mandatory celibacy.
Why should you or I trust their interpretation of Scripture. Shouldn't I go by the Bible alone?
The not-so-subtle point I'm driving at is that the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church has been replaced by another tradition.
Not that there may not be a lot of truth in the Augsburg Confession. I've never read it. But you get my point.
Amen brother.
Needs to be said again.
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