Free Republic
Browse · Search
VetsCoR
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Battle of Ap Tau O (6/8/1966) - June 8th, 2003
John M. Carland ^

Posted on 06/08/2003 3:48:24 AM PDT by snippy_about_it



Dear Lord,

There's a young man far from home,
called to serve his nation in time of war;
sent to defend our freedom
on some distant foreign shore.

We pray You keep him safe,
we pray You keep him strong,
we pray You send him safely home ...
for he's been away so long.

There's a young woman far from home,
serving her nation with pride.
Her step is strong, her step is sure,
there is courage in every stride.
We pray You keep her safe,
we pray You keep her strong,
we pray You send her safely home ...
for she's been away too long.

Bless those who await their safe return.
Bless those who mourn the lost.
Bless those who serve this country well,
no matter what the cost.

Author Unknown

.

FReepers from the The Foxhole
join in prayer for all those serving their country at this time.

.

.................................................................................................................................

U.S. Military History, Current Events and Veterans Issues

Where Duty, Honor and Country
are acknowledged, affirmed and commemorated.

Our Mission:

The FReeper Foxhole is dedicated to Veterans of our Nation's military forces and to others who are affected in their relationships with Veterans.

We hope to provide an ongoing source of information about issues and problems that are specific to Veterans and resources that are available to Veterans and their families.

In the FReeper Foxhole, Veterans or their family members should feel free to address their specific circumstances or whatever issues concern them in an atmosphere of peace, understanding, brotherhood and support.

To read previous Foxhole threads or
to add the Foxhole to your sidebar,
click on the books below.

Resource Links For Veterans


Click on the pix

Double Ambush On Route 13


Not one, but two ambushes would be set up to greet the deploying armored cavalry of the U.S. 1st Infantry Division in a test of strength along National Route 13 in Binh Long Province.

Whether American armored cavalry could hold its own against the Viet Cong was a burning question in May of 1966. And June would provide the answer -- in the form of two battles fought by the U.S. 1st Infantry Division, at Ap Tau O and at Srok Dong.

Both battles took place on National Route 13, a major north-south highway in Binh Long Province, and were part of a larger campaign by the 1st Infantry to thwart the enemy’s Monsoon Offensive (supposed to run from mid-May through mid-August). By aggressively seeking out the Viet Cong, the Division commander, Maj. Gen. William DePuy, hoped to take the war to the enemy and hurt him badly. During his campaign, called El Paso II, the 1st Infantry would fight, on separate occasions, regiments of the 9th Viet Cong Division -- the 271st, 272nd, and the 273rd. Battles with the 271st and 272nd would be led by cavalry units of the First Infantry Division on June 8 and June 30.



Paradoxically, each battle was the result of a VC ambush, and one doesn’t stretch the truth by saying that the Viet Cong were masters of the ambush -- so much so that in their technique they almost turned the ambush into a work of art. Their planning-and-execution approach was the "one slow, four quick" formula. The first step, the slow one, dictated that the commander and his aides, without haste and very thoroughly, plan the ambush. The commander would study the enemy, the proposed location of the ambush, and plan the actual assault. In many cases he might actually visit the proposed area to personally check out possible locations for bunkers, gun positions, mines and troop deployment. The commander would also prepare routes to move his troops to the battlefield and withdrawal routes to move them out when the ambush was over.

Next, the commander and his men would pull back to a safe area and rehearse the ambush until all unit leaders and each individual knew the terrain, his job, and the general situation. Last, came the execution ("four quick") phase. The Viet Cong now advanced quickly to the battle area and then, assuming that their timing was good (it usually was because of their very capable intelligence organization), they would go directly into the second ("quick") step -- assault quickly.

After the actual ambush, or whenever the commander had decided the time had come, the Viet Cong would clear the battlefield quickly. They would carry off anything in the way of weapons, ammunition and supplies that might be useful in the future, destroying what they could not carry. Finally they would also carry off their dead and wounded. This led into the fourth quick step -- withdraw as fast as possible along previously selected escape routes.



In mid 1966 it was clear that the Americans in South Vietnam had yet to devise a consistently successful way of dealing with such attacks. The experience gained in El Paso II in June and July of 1966 would provide some improvement.

The events that triggered the first major battle of El Paso II, the Battle of Ap Tau O on Route 13, began to unfold early in the morning of June 8, 1966. Troop A, 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry, left its base camp at Phu Loi -- moving north to the provincial capital of An Loc. The troop was made up of 135 men and 41 armored vehicles -- nine M48 tanks, 29 armored cavalry assault vehicles (ACAVs), including two flame-throwing vehicles and two radar vehicles, plus two engineer "dozer" tanks, and one armored recovery vehicle.

Troop A was commanded by Captain Ralph Sturgis, whose three platoons moved northward in inverted order -- the 3rd Platoon first and the 1st last. The convoy’s purpose was to place the squadron armor more centrally for operational use in El Paso II -- to help protect against an expected Viet Cong attack on An Loc. As a routine precaution the 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry (2/18), acting as a ready-reaction force, was flown from its base camp to Lai Khe on the morning of June 8. It would be well located to react to any contact made by Captain Sturgis’ road column.



Because the enemy’s penchant for mining Route 13 was well known, the convoy at first traveled on the abandoned roadbed of an old French railway and on dirt paths in hopes of a safer ride. (After all, the enemy would hardly lay mines beneath a no-longer-used roadbed or on dirt paths -- or so it was hoped.) The roadbed and dirt paths ran roughly parallel to Route 13.

Troop A reached the intermediate destination of Lai Khe at 11 a.m. At Lai Khe, headquarters of the 3rd Brigade, the soldiers of Troop A took their lunch while the tanks and ACAVs refueled. The troop then left Lai Khe on Route 13, but quickly abandoned the highway for the relative safety of the railway roadbed. The troop’s journey northward continued without incident to Chon Thanh, capital of Chon Thanh District.

As Troop A arrived at Chon Thanh, the 2/18 moved by helicopter from its own earlier stop at Lai Khe to Hon Quan airfield at An Loc, so as to be better positioned to provide assistance should Troop A need it. As further safety precaution, a trail party was left behind at Chon Thanh and would catch up later.

The troop now found it slow going off the highway. After it reached and passed through Chon Thanh, the jungle foliage made traveling and defending against a potential ambush so difficult that Troop A -- balancing safety against the need to move on -- returned to Route 13. The 135 men of Troop A were now on the last leg of their journey to An Loc -- and, although they did not know it, just about to enter the killing zone of an enemy ambush.



Strung out along the west side of Route 13, from the village of Ap Tau O to a point about three kilometers to the north, the 272nd regiment of the 9th Viet Cong Division was waiting for the Americans. The VC had dug in the previous night and formed an L-shaped ambush. A small number of the guerrillas positioned themselves on the east side of the road. From north to south the regiment’s 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalions massed along Route 13, while the regiment’s reconnaissance company arranged itself across the base of the L. The location was just beyond, or at the maximum range of, nearby friendly artillery. The Viet Cong commander and his staff had selected an excellent place for an ambush. They also had fulfilled another Viet Cong tactical requirement -- substantial and in this case enormous, numerical superiority over the Americans. In addition, the American cavalry troop was strung out for almost three kilometers.

Accounts differ as to precisely when and how the battle began. Most likely, it was about 2:30 p.m. when a recoilless rifle or a mine (or both) hit the column’s lead tank and triggered the ambush. Immediately, according to the cavalry squadron’s annual historical report, "the entire column came under intense small arms, automatic weapons, mortar and recoilless rifle fire." The logical next step would have been for the Viet Cong to attempt overrunning the column. However, a captured enemy document indicates that the U.S. troops reacted so quickly that the VC were themselves pinned down by heavy American fire. Within Troop A, the 3rd Platoon came under the most intense fire, the 2nd Platoon received less intense fire, and the trailing 1st Platoon suffered hardly any.

Captain Sturgis, whose command ACAV was in the middle of the column, quickly began moving toward its head. As he did, the left side of his vehicle received a direct hit from a recoilless rifle. With no great damage done, he continued. Then a second recoilless-rifle team began taking a bead on Sturgis’ ACAV. Fortunately, the commander of an American M132 flame-thrower vehicle saw the VC team and quickly turned his weapon on the guerrillas, with devastating results. Sturgis was saved.


HERRINGBONE FORMATION - This formation gave vehicles best all-round firepower when they were ambushed in a restricted area.


In the confusion surrounding the first minutes of battle the troopers could not ascertain the origin of enemy fire -- the east or west side of the road. Third Platoon’s vehicles automatically went into a herringbone formation so as to cover both sides. The 2nd Platoon meanwhile, acting on Sturgis’ order, moved up to reinforce the lead 3rd Platoon, while the 1st Platoon, much farther back, began moving toward the sounds of gunfire. Shortly thereafter it became clear that almost all enemy fire came from west of the road, from an area of trees and secondary growth about a hundred meters back. Sturgis ordered his men to organize the vehicles into a circular defensive perimeter -- a laager -- on a slight rise a bit to the right, i.e. east, of the highway. Almost simultaneously he called for air support through the on-station Forward Air Controller (FAC), Captain Richard Wetzel. Within 11 minutes the first USAF flight had arrived.

The situation was fluid for a while, as the inevitable confusion that attends the start -- and sometimes all -- of a battle prevailed. Even though Sturgis had ordered the formation of a laager, it could not -- because elements of his Troop extended along 3,000 meters of Route 13 -- be accomplished immediately. As the 1st Platoon attempted to make its way toward the laager area, its commander Lieutenant Louis Bouault, noticed a large number of Viet Cong moving parallel to his platoon. Presumably from the 272nd’s Second Battalion, they presented an inviting target. Bouault ordered his men to open fire, which they did, causing a good number of casualties among the advancing Viet Cong. Indeed, his fire caused the enemy to attack his own platoon. In the ensuing fight one ACAV was damaged and another destroyed. However, Bouault’s platoon, now within 500 to 800 meters of the laager, continued on and soon reached the laager’s southern edge. There, he attached his platoon to the rest of the troop. As vehicles in the now-completed defensive perimeter continued firing, the laager obviously became the main focus of enemy attention. Although it is unlikely that the Viet Cong so intended, the battle, in the main, soon became one of fire, not maneuver, and a pattern of static conflict emerged.

At this point the enemy commander had two options -- retreat or stay and inflict as much damage and take as many American lives as possible. The American armored force, on the other hand, had three options -- attack, retreat or stand pat. Given the substantial firepower of an armored cavalry troop, one might have expected the option of attack. The squadron commander, Lt. Col. Leonard Lewane was overhead in his helicopter throughout the battle -- he in fact landed and walked the perimeter twice. In addition, the 3rd Brigade commander and both assistant divisional commanders and the division commander, General DePuy, were all kept abreast of events. None ordered an attack, and in the division’s after-action report, that decision was indirectly criticized.




Regarding the second option, meanwhile, there was obviously no reason to retreat. Not only is an armored cavalry troop in and of itself a powerful entity, but in this case the Air Force presence made it certain that the troop would not be overrun. Further, the 2/18th Infantry was at An Loc as a ready-reaction force. Additionally, elements of the 5th ARVN (South Vietnamese) Division at An Loc were ready to move south on Route 13 to reinforce Troop A.

As it turned out, the option chosen was to stand pat. Troop A in its own defensive perimeter with its own tanks and ACAVs -- in conjunction with the Air Force and, to a lesser degree, artillery -- blasted away at the enemy in the woods across Route 13 for hours. In the late afternoon the Viet Cong commander decided his troops had inflicted -- and absorbed -- all the damage they could. He began withdrawing to the west, effectively to end the main portion of the battle.

At an earlier lull, Captain Sturgis had ordered the trail party, under the command of his executive officer, Lieutenant Ronald Copes, to leave Chon Thanh, where it had stayed when the rest of the troop moved on toward An Loc. On reaching the southern edge of the battle area, it was to pick up any tank or other Troop A vehicle that had been dropped off along the way. While so engaged, the trail party itself encountered a small ambush, set up by the VC 3rd/272, which resulted in the loss of an American tank to a recoilless rifle -- possibly the only time that the 272nd’s 3rd Battalion participated in the battle. With the aid of close air support, the trail party drove the enemy away in a firefight that lasted about 30 minutes and then proceeded to link up with the main body of Troop A.

Meanwhile the 2/18th was ordered, as the ready-reaction force, to the battle area to relieve and reinforce Troop A. Since the closest landing zone (LZ) was four miles to the north, by the time the helicopter-lifted battalion landed and swept down to the battle area, the enemy had withdrawn. The ARVN units, coming south on Route 13 by truck, also arrived too late to be of materiel assistance.


M113 AFTER HITS BY VIET CONG 57-mm. RECOILLESS RIFLE


Troop A and the 2nd Battalion, 18th Infantry, remained near the battle site overnight. On June 9, they policed the battlefield and then moved on to Hon Quan to provide security for an artillery battery and the divisional command post being established there.

The Air Force contribution to repulse off the ambush had been a key factor. Not only did a flight arrive just minutes after the ambush opened, but air sorties consisting of 17 flights of bombers delivered 27 tons of high explosives and napalm, six tons of fragmentation bombs and 24 canisters of cluster bomb units over the next several hours. On the few occasions when the Air Force did not have a flight on station, helicopter gunships filled the void. In short, the enemy was under constant bombardment from 11 minutes after he triggered the ambush until he began disengaging. For the most part, the Air Force pounded the area to the immediate west of the troop’s perimeter. The 3rd Brigade’s after-action report gave generous praise -- "Close air support was considered the decisive factor in the success of the battle on June 8 along Highway 13." There were still some rough spots to be worked out in the procedures by which tactical air support could help the 1st Infantry, but basically the job had been done well.

Evaluating the battle later, the planners saw an engagement which started as an ambush and continued long enough to become a fierce fire fight. At its end, 14 Americans were dead and approximately 40 wounded. The enemy had taken much higher casualties -- approximately 100 killed in action (by body count), with an additional 200 to 250 estimated killed, and doubtlessly a large number of wounded. On balance the Americans saw the engagement as a success. The 1st VC Battalion had suffered 90 percent casualties and the 2nd Battalion, 50 percent. (The 3rd Battalion had been considerably south of the main attack and only participated in peripheral action. This accounts for its having only minimal casualties.)


SHERIDAN M551 AND CREW MEMBERS


At the very beginning, a VC mistake helped Troop A. The Viet Cong laid out the ambush in such a way that their own lines extended for at least three kilometers. Over-extended, the enemy could not easily maneuver against Troop A once the ambush was triggered. But the Americans also made mistakes. The divisional after-action report makes it clear that, instead of going into a tight circular defense perimeter as soon as the battle began, Troop A should have maneuvered and attacked aggressively. Among other improvements adopted, the report disclosed "Communications were tightened up, the coordination of air and artillery was improved by the simple means of preplanning artillery support on one side of the road and air support on the other so these two decisive weapons could be used continuously and simultaneously. It was also decided that the infantry reaction would be divided into two elements. First, a battlefield relief force to preclude a defeat in the area of the main attack, and second, a battlefield-exploitation force which would be landed along the routes of withdrawal in order to destroy VC forces some distance from the ambush site." Members of the division at all levels felt that the enemy had been soundly defeated in the battle at Ap Tau O, but they also felt that important lessons had been learned. The 1st Infantry battles fought later in the same campaign seem to bear this out.

Thanks to Freeper RasterMaster for suggesting this thread

This thread is dedicated to the memory of his Uncle - KIA - Battle of Ap Tau-O, June 8, 1966



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: 14cavarly; 1stinfantry; aptauo; battleofanloc; benchmark69; bifredone; freeperfoxhole; veterans; vietnam
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 161-175 next last
To: RasterMaster


PFC. Roger L Conner

61 posted on 06/08/2003 2:13:50 PM PDT by SAMWolf ("There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face." -Ben Williams)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: All
Sorry having trouble posting pics and such. I appreciate SamWolf and all who have made this possible, and those who take the time to view these posts.

On vacation last summer, I met Roger's widow, married and widowed at a very young age. She passed on to me Roger's personals and Purple Heart. Among the items she passed were his dress uniform and grad book from Basic, the articles and photos I posted, as well as the flag from his funeral service and the shells from the salute.

He passed before I was born, but I learned from his widow that Roger and Avery were buddies growing up and served in the same unit (Troop A 1/4 Cav). Roger was a driver, first in tank A-14, then drove a APC A-13. From what I can tell of after action reports, these boys put up a hell of a fight.

Thank you for honoring veterans from my family as well as those others who served our country.

62 posted on 06/08/2003 2:22:27 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: All

THE CREW OF A13 Oakey, in the Track Commander position with Peterson in the munitions postion, after the battle of Bau Bang. Note the two holes in his vehicle from Recoiless Rifle. It is a miracle that he and his crew didn't get seriously injured by this.

- Bill Baty

63 posted on 06/08/2003 2:53:35 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster
You did a fine job posting.

How very kind of Roger's widow to pass on his personal belongings and his purple heart to you.

I saw in the news article that Roger and she had just married before he left. How sad for a young newlywed that must have been.

And she saved his belongings all this time. It's wonderful that you were able to recieve them.

This has been a truly special day to be able to pay tribute to your Uncle and his friend who gave the ultimate sacrifice.

Thank you.
64 posted on 06/08/2003 3:03:32 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; AntiJen; MistyCA; SpookBrat; souris; All
Hi everybody!

Whew! what a busy day today. Hope everyone is enjoying a beautiful Sunday afternoon.


65 posted on 06/08/2003 3:10:55 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
That's a good graphic Victoria. Everyday is a busy day anymore isn't it! lol. Good to see you. And you're a bit early today.
66 posted on 06/08/2003 3:18:31 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: All
Any vets of this battle, or anyone who knew PFC Roger Conner, or troopers of A-13, (PFC Terril G. Peterson, or the Track Commander SP5 John B. Oakey), or PFC Avery Smith, I would like to hear from you. Roger's widow would also like to establish contact with fellow soldiers of A Troop.
67 posted on 06/08/2003 3:19:39 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it
Good to see you too, Snippy.

And you're a bit early today.

LOL! I tried to come earlier but I had so much stuff to do, I still have but I wanted to say hello first.

68 posted on 06/08/2003 3:21:50 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it
Snippy, She was 16 when they were married...worst part is she was treated as a child and her parents kept her from getting any insurance.

My grandfather and one uncle were only ones to view inside the casket, but the subject is taboo for those still living, besides Roger's widow.

There are some of his medals that apparently he never received or never got to her, so I will see about replacing those. Holding the newspapers for that long is a good thing as many of the older local papers for the area where he was from were lost in fires and hard to come by.

I sent for his personnel file, but got an IDPF instead after much hounding them to send me the file, sine I am not "next of kin" (parents, siblings or spouse). There are statements in the file that tell events of the battle, which contradicted everything the Army told the family.

Although I never met him, I am learning more and more about his life. I would like to learn more about his service, so if there is anybody out there who can help.....?

69 posted on 06/08/2003 3:48:40 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it
Gotta run. Be back later, guys.
70 posted on 06/08/2003 3:58:44 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster
RasterMaster, you may already be aware of NARA but just in case here is some information. They do have some records available even if you aren't next of kin. Have you check with any next of kin who may help you with this as far as permission goes?

When an individual is separated from military service (because of retirement, discharge from active duty, or death), his/her Field Personnel File (containing all military and health records) is forwarded for storage to the National Personnel Records Center (Military), 9700 Page Boulevard, St. Louis, Missouri 63172. The Records Center is under the jurisdiction of the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) of the United States Government.

An individual's complete service record is available to the former service member or, if deceased, to his/her next of kin (parents, spouse, or children). Limited information (such as dates of service, awards, and training) is available to anyone. Not available to the general public is information which would invade an individual's privacy; for example, medical records, Social Security number, or present address.

Note: Of incidental interest for individuals compiling family histories: the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), 8th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Washington, DC 20408, (telephone: 202-501-5400) provides assistance to those interested in genealogy. NARA normally charges a nominal fee for research and reproduction costs.
71 posted on 06/08/2003 4:03:50 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul
LOL.

We'll be here, doing thread work!

We love it!!!
72 posted on 06/08/2003 4:05:46 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it
Snippy, My first contact was NARA, who then pointed me to St. Louis, who claimed that many records were lost by fire, and only info they provided was what is available on the net (date of death, rank, etc - basic info). I asked for more and referred me to Army dept. in Alexandria VA, which is where I obtained the IDPFF. I requested a family debreifing or whatever they call it, but have heard nothing.

Last year I had a flag flown over the capitol (April 4, 2002), and later met my aunt. I then got in contact with my father and uncles to inform them what I needed and what I was doing to recover the records. They will provide a letter for me if I can find more info, but I have been told there is nothing else. As well, Roger's widow gave her permission to obtain whatever I can. The file I have is only relating to his death and has no other information.

73 posted on 06/08/2003 4:14:15 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Valin
I dont know of a movie of these events. "We were soldiers" was the AIR CAV in '65, wasn't it? That is only one I can think of.
74 posted on 06/08/2003 4:48:56 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster
You've got freep mail. :)
75 posted on 06/08/2003 4:55:37 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it
Roger Conner mingles with the locals.

76 posted on 06/08/2003 5:00:25 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: snippy_about_it
Thanks again Snippy! You make it all EASY!
77 posted on 06/08/2003 5:03:09 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster

Roger Conner mingles with the locals.

78 posted on 06/08/2003 5:04:05 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster
LOL. You're welcome. I saw part of the code drop off as I thought it might in freepmail so I added it and increased the font. What a fine looking young man he was. Thank you so much for sharing all this history with us. :)
79 posted on 06/08/2003 5:05:18 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Pray for our Troops)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: RasterMaster

Business end of A-14, Roger takes a break.


80 posted on 06/08/2003 5:07:03 PM PDT by RasterMaster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 161-175 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
VetsCoR
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson