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To: Iris7; SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; PzLdr; colorado tanker; alfa6; Valin; Professional Engineer
There seems to be as much mystery over attributing "Only the dead have seen the end of war" to Plato as there has been "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" to Yamamoto.

In the former instance the attribution may end with MacArthur or with Santayana. In the latter, with Tora! Tora! Tora! (1970).

The MacArthur address is available in text and mp3 at General Douglas MacArthur: Thayer Award Acceptance Address.

Clausewitz said "war is a continuation of politics (politik) by other means".

WAR AND POLITICS: THE REVOLUTION IN MILITARY AFFAIRS AND THE CONTINUED RELEVANCE OF CLAUSEWITZ

59 posted on 05/19/2005 10:35:48 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: PhilDragoo; All
A bit of digression and discourse on "politics",

"Politik ist das Öffentliche: die zielgerichteten Handlungen und Ordnungen, die allgemein verbindliche Regeln sozialer Gemeinschaften oder eines oder mehrerer Staaten bestimmen. Der Begriff wird aus dem griechischen Begriff 'Polis' für 'Stadt' oder 'Gemeinschaft' abgeleitet." Wikipedia.

Google translates, "Politics are the public: the purposeful actions and orders, which determine generally obligatory rules of social communities or one or several states. The term is derived from the Greek term ' Polis ' for ' city ' or ' community '."

Sounds to me like they are talking about social organization. "Politics are the public" sounds like "Politics are people taken as a group." War can exist even with only small groups of people involved. We call 'em bandits, usually.

Certainly here we talk about the quest for power, since "generally obligatory rules of social communities" have to be set by someone and enforced by some faction.

I would include "myth" within politics, "a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain (more "embody", IMHO) the world view of a people." Or, more to my liking, "For some myth is seen as a device to cloak or conceal a knowable reality (ie facts evaporate into myth). For others, it is the way the unknowable can be understood. Claude Levi-Strauss wrote that a myth is a device to think with -- a way in which reality is classified and organized. Roland Barthes stated that a myth is a type of speech, so that everything can be a myth provided it is conveyed by a discourse. For Barthes, this historically-produced, depoliticized speech gives meaning and form to reality. Thus, instead of cloaking reality, a myth is used to both control and explain it."

I like the second definition better. PoliSci site, natch.

Thanks for the MacArthur info, darned if I could find anything like that quote, and figured it was because I am not a Plato scholar.

Speaking of Clausewitz, when I first read Sun Tsu I was totally floored by "The Art of War"s explanatory power. The Viet Nam war unfolded like a book into lucidity. "Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State."

Sure, war is what the State is all about.

61 posted on 05/19/2005 11:26:10 PM PDT by Iris7 (A man said, "That's heroism." "No, that's Duty," replied Roy Benavides, Medal of Honor.)
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