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The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Hurricanes vs Spitfires (1936-1945) - Jan.27th, 2005
Aviation History. | November 1994 | David Alan Johnson

Posted on 01/26/2005 9:31:54 PM PST by SAMWolf



Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.


.................................................................. .................... ...........................................

U.S. Military History, Current Events and Veterans Issues

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Friendly Rivals: Hurricanes and Spitfires


Although the relative merits of the two World War II aircraft continue to be debated, the dissimilar stablemates complemented one another in combat and together saved a country.



Which is better, the Supermarine Spitfire or the Hawker Hurricane? That question has been asked by pilots, historians and air enthusiasts since 1940. It does not have a definitive answer, however, each aircraft had its strong points and its disadvantages. Although both aircraft played a decisive role in the Battle of Britain they could not have been more different from one another. Each was created under a completely different set of circumstances and came from totally different backgrounds and antecedents. The Spitfire owed its famous graceful lines and speed to its early ancestors, evolving as a fighter from a series of extremely successful racing seaplanes that were designed in the 1920s--and 1930s. All of those racers were built by the firm of Supermarine Ltd. and were designed by one man--Reginald J. Mitchell. The innovative Mitchell has been called one of the most brilliant designers Britain has ever produced. His designs really were ahead of their time. In 1925, when he began building racing airplanes, streamlining was considered more a theoretical exercise than an engineering possibility. But Mitchell made engineering theories more than just possibilities; he turned them into brilliant successes.


Reginald J. Mitchell


Mitchell's efforts at streamlining produced aircraft that were not only graceful but also among the fastest in the world. In 1927, his S.5 racer won the Schneider Trophy with a speed of 281.65 mph. Four years later, his elegant S.6B captured the Schneider Trophy outright for Britain with a speed of 340.08. Later, on September 29, 1931, his S.6B, fitted with a special "Sprint" engine with its horsepower upgraded to 2,550, pushed the world speed record to 407.5 mph.


Supermarine S.5


During that time, Britain's Air Ministry began looking for a replacement for the Royal Air Force's (RAF) standard fighters, the Bristol Bulldog and Gloster Gladiator, both of which were biplanes. Knowing he had the experience and the reputation he acquired by designing his Schneider Trophy winners going for him, Mitchell decided to make a bid for the Air Ministry's contract to design this new fighter. The Supermarine firm had been taken over by the industrial giant Vickers by this time; the new corporation was known as Supermarine Aviation Works (Vickers) Ltd.


Supermarine F.7/30


The first prototype of the aircraft that would become known as the Spitfire was an odd-looking affair. Officially designated the F.7/30, it was a gull-winged monoplane with an open cockpit and spatted undercarriage. It looked more like a German Junkers Ju-87 Stuka dive bomber than the Battle of Britain fighter. Mitchell was not satisfied with his F.7/30 for a number of reasons. For one thing, it was underpowered--its Rolls-Royce Goshawk II engine gave it a speed of only 238 mph. So he began to experiment. He added a larger engine, enclosed the cockpit, and gave his new fighter a retractable undercarriage with smaller, thinner wings. These thin, elliptically shaped wings would become the fighter's most recognizable feature. Mitchell continued to modify his design in 1933 and 1934. The larger engine he had in mind was supplied by Rolls-Royce--a new, 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled power plant called simply the PV-12. Rolls-Royce would rename this engine the Merlin--a name that would become legend among aircraft power plants. The new fighter, now designated the F.10/35, developed into a low-wing interceptor with retractable undercarriage, flaps, enclosed cockpit, and oxygen for the pilot. The Merlin engine promised to give it all the speed Mitchell wanted and the Air Ministry would require. For armament, he gave his fighter four wing-mounted .303-caliber machine guns. Air Vice Marshal Hugh "Stuffy" Dowding, Air Member for Supply and Research, had been in charge of the RAF's technical development since 1930. He was favorably impressed by Mitchell's F.10/35 except for one item-he wanted eight machine guns. Recent tests had shown that the minimum firepower needed to shoot down an enemy bomber was six or, preferably, eight guns, each capable of firing 1,000 rounds per minute. With that armament, it was estimated that a pilot would need only two seconds to destroy an enemy bomber in the air-the time during which a fighter pilot would be able to keep the enemy in his sights, it was thought.



Dowding had the future in mind. He knew that the German Luftwaffe was expanding and that Adolf Hitler's ambition would probably lead to an armed conflict between Britain and Germany. His farsightedness would pay off eight years later, in 1940, when he was chief of RAF Fighter Command.



Because of his aircraft's elliptical wings, Mitchell was able to fit four Browning .303 caliber machine guns into each wing without increasing drag or radically altering the design. With that armament, along with the RollsRoyce Merlin engine and the other features he had designed, Mitchell knew that his fighter would be a match for any aircraft the Luftwaffe might produce. Now all he had to do was convince the Air Ministry.



Mitchell's fighter first took to the air on March 5, 1936. It had been given a name-the Spitfire-by Vickers and made official by the Air Ministry. (Mitchell himself did not like the name very much; he called it "a bloody silly name.") This Spitfire was flown by J. "Mutt" Summers, chief test pilot for Vickers and Supermarine, out of the Eastleigh airport in Hampshire. It was unarmed and fitted with a fixed-pitch wooden propeller. After landing from his test flight, Summers told his ground crew, "I don't want anything touched."

Although some alterations would be made, he realized from just one flight that the Spitfire was an outstanding fighter.



Following some persuasive arguments from Air Vice Marshal Dowding, the Air Ministry agreed with Summers' assessment. With a maximum speed of 342 mph, the plane was classed as the fastest military aircraft in the world. Less than three months after Summers' test flight, on June 3, 1936, a contract was placed with Supermarine for 300 Spitfires. Six hundred more were ordered the next year. By the time Britain went to war with Germany on September 3, 1939, the war that Air Vice Marshal Dowding had foreseen, 2,160 Spitfires were on order for the RAF.

But R.J. Mitchell never lived to see the success of his creation. In 1937, at the age of 42, he died of cancer.


Sir Sidney Camm


Although the Spitfire was the product of one man's imagination, the Hawker Hurricane did not owe its origins to any single individual. It was the result of an evolutionary process that began with the fabric-covered biplanes of World War I. Revolutionary for its time-it was the RAF's first monoplane fighter and its first fighter to exceed 300 mph-the Hurricane was still a wood-and-fabric airplane. It was once referred to as "a halfway house between the old biplanes and the new Spitfires." Sidney Camm, Hawker Aircraft's chief designer, was the leading force behind the Hurricane's development. In the early 1930s, when the Air Ministry began looking to replace its biplanes with a more modem fighter, Camm already had a design for what he called his Fury monoplane, a modification of the graceful and highly maneuverable Fury biplane. The Fury was the direct descendant of Sopwith's Pup, Triplane, Camel, Dolphin and Snipe-fighters of World War I. Hawker Aircraft Ltd. had begun its life as Sopwith Ltd.


RollsRoyce's PV-12 (Merlin)


Apart from the fact that the Hurricane was a monoplane, its major differences from the Fury were its power plant and armament. The Fury was powered by the Rolls-Royce Kestrel, which gave it a maximum speed of 184 mph. But the Kestrel was much too small for the Hurricane. When Camm heard about RollsRoyce's PV-12 engine, the Merlin, he modified his new monoplane to accommodate it.



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: airpower; battleofbritain; freeperfoxhole; hurricane; spitfire; veterans; wwii
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf
Evening Grace Snip & Sam~

Here's a quote that just jumped out . . .

If those officers had had their way, the RAF would have faced the Luftwaffe's Messerschmitt Bf-109s with obsolete Gloster Gladiators in the spring and summer of 1940. It was that line of thinking that made Dowding's job of upgrading and modernizing the RAF more difficult.

Can't help but wonder how England would look today if this had become a reality. Thankfully for them there were those with this forsight . . .

I take the view that it took both of them to win the Battle of Britain, and neither would have achieved it on its own.

[Will tonight be the night I here something from my Ms Snip???? The faithful wait.]

61 posted on 01/27/2005 5:07:33 PM PST by w_over_w (Give a man a fish, he will eat today; teach him to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer.)
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: bentfeather

So that's how they get more tanks, eh?

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


63 posted on 01/27/2005 6:53:17 PM PST by alfa6 (Now if I can get the link thingy to work, ah well)
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To: w_over_w; SAMWolf; Iris7; Professional Engineer; snippy_about_it; bentfeather; All
Well I have finally figured out how to get my pics to open up in the picture program so I can resize them to post on the Foxhole, YIPPEE. I have three Hurricane pics and four of the Spitfire, here goes nothing. And of course a big lift of the alfa6 lid to the fine folks that made these pics possible.

First up two Hurricanes from Glenn Alderton's maginficent collection.

A Hurricane MKIV model complete with Vickers 40mm guns under the wings, better known as the Flying Can Opener.

Here are the four Spitfire pics

Here is a Spitfire MkIX from the 2003 Duxsford airshow.

Another MKIX showing off the famed elliptical wing of Reginald Mitchells Spitfire.

A Spitfire MkV showing off the clipped wings that were on several Marks of the Spitfires.

And last but not least another Glenn Alderton pic that should at least have you thinkingDUCK

That's it for tonight folks, y'all have a great night and a better tomorrow.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

64 posted on 01/27/2005 7:14:33 PM PST by alfa6 (Now if I can get the link thingy to work, ah well)
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To: alfa6

WOW thanks so much! Fantastic.


65 posted on 01/27/2005 7:17:20 PM PST by Soaring Feather
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To: w_over_w

Here I am O'faithful one. ;-)

I have a few minutes anyway. I'm sorry we haven't been posting much. We are trying to get some of our advertising started and working on our marketing plan for 2005. Yep, we need to plan out the ENTIRE year by COB Jan 31st.

"Home Office is flying out Feb 1st for a visit and our local paper is meeting with us the 2nd and we need not only an ad ready but a profile of us both for a write up of new businesses.

We have been invited to speak at the local Kiwanis tomorrow at 7 a.m.!

We just got 10,000 pounds of seed in yesterday and we are still on the phone working with folks we ordered from at the Trade Show.

We read to school children in March and I need a particular book I want to read.

Lots of small stuff in between and all this just to get customers!!!

So, how have you been sweetie?


66 posted on 01/27/2005 7:20:09 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: alfa6

Wonderful pictures alfa6. Sorry we are so late in responding. Busy, busy, busy.


67 posted on 01/27/2005 7:21:14 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Valin
This is so unlike your basic fighter pilot, normaly they're so laid back and unaggresive.

LOL. Oh yeah!

68 posted on 01/27/2005 7:22:11 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: GailA

Good evening Gail. We've been kind of busy these last few days and I'm just getting here. It started out sunny, then clouds most of the day but mild weather and not as much fog as we have been having.


69 posted on 01/27/2005 7:24:00 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: The Mayor

Good evening Mayor. Another long day and I'm late getting here.


70 posted on 01/27/2005 7:25:00 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf

What was it Kermit the Frog used to say, oh yeah..."it isn't easy being green"

Y'all take care of business now, ya heah

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


71 posted on 01/27/2005 7:30:18 PM PST by alfa6
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To: snippy_about_it
Busy, busy, busy.

Me too.

72 posted on 01/27/2005 7:32:23 PM PST by aomagrat (Where weapons are not allowed, it is best to carry weapons.)
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To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Old_Mil; Diver Dave; Iris7; Aeronaut; E.G.C.; alfa6; ...
"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duty, and so bear ourselves, that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'" (London, England, June 18, 1940)

Requires RealPlayer, a RealPain, but worth blood, sweat, tears and toil.

~~~


Hawker Hurricane Mk II B / C


Supermarine Spitfire Mk VB


Lowering the Merlin engine into a Spitfire at the Vickers Castle Bromwich plant in 1942.


'MERLIN'S HANDMAIDENS' - A Rolls-Royce Merlin Crank-shaft is being lifted from its bearings by W.A.A.F. fitters.
Merlinspannerspankentruppen


The P-51D's Rolls Royce Merlin installation.

1930 Bobby "Blue" Bland Rosemark TN, blues singer

Saw him with B.B. King in Boston 1970. Rap, on the other hand, is noise.


Daphne Hughes is pictured filing the corners of teeth for a Rolls Royce Merlin engine’s timing gears – vital parts for the famous engine that powered the Spitfire aircraft among others.


Merian C. Cooper, director of King Kong

In one of Hollywood’s greatest stunt castings, the two men in the plane that shoot down Kong are none other than directors Cooper and Schoedsack themselves. The best part of the story is that this wasn’t really stunt casting. If there was really had been a giant ape terrorizing the city, explorers and adventurers Cooper and Schoedsack would have been the best men for the job.

And now you know the rest of the story.

73 posted on 01/27/2005 7:39:56 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: aomagrat

It's a good thing, I hope. ;-)


74 posted on 01/27/2005 8:13:14 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: alfa6

LOL. But we're not making rent money....yet. ;-)


75 posted on 01/27/2005 8:13:57 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: PhilDragoo

I dare say we could change a few words of Churchill's speech and it would speak of our fight against Islam.


76 posted on 01/27/2005 8:21:30 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Valin

"Shameless plugs" always welcome. :-)


77 posted on 01/27/2005 8:56:16 PM PST by SAMWolf (Never make the same mistake twice. There are too many new ones to try)
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To: Valin

LOL! I don't think I ever met a "pushy" fighter pilot.


78 posted on 01/27/2005 8:57:19 PM PST by SAMWolf (Never make the same mistake twice. There are too many new ones to try)
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To: snippy_about_it

I'm an expert at making new mistakes.


79 posted on 01/27/2005 8:57:56 PM PST by SAMWolf (Never make the same mistake twice. There are too many new ones to try)
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To: Old_Mil

I don't know if that "Religion Lite" applies to the entire Church or just the American part of it. From what I hear from Poland, they don't seem to have fallen into the same "change to keep up with the times" attitude as we have here.


80 posted on 01/27/2005 9:00:04 PM PST by SAMWolf (Never make the same mistake twice. There are too many new ones to try)
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