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The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - PanzerKampfwagen VI - Tiger I - Mar. 2nd, 2004
www.wargamer.com ^
Posted on 03/02/2004 12:00:32 AM PST by SAMWolf
Lord,
Keep our Troops forever in Your care
Give them victory over the enemy...
Grant them a safe and swift return...
Bless those who mourn the lost. .
FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer for all those serving their country at this time.
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PanzerKampfwagen VI Tiger I
The most famous German battle tank, the Tiger generated an aura of invincibility giving it a psychological advantage of great value. This reputation was justified by events such as the action in which SS-Obersturmführer Wittmann, commanding a Tiger on the Villers Bocage road in Normandy on 13 June 1944, destroyed 25 half-tracks and tanks, effectively blocking the road and halting the advance of a complete armoured division. At that time the British and Americans called every German panzer a "Tiger", although most of them were PzKpfw IV. Few would claim it as the best tank of all time, but it showed the way to the Panther and Tiger II which went a long way towards making up in firepower and effectiveness for the numerical deficiency in armor with which the German army had to face the Allied forces in the closing stages of WWII.
Henschel's VK3601 prototype
The Tiger tank originated from developments started in 1937, when Henschel were instructed to design and construct a 30- to 33-ton tank prototype as possible successor to the PzKpfw IV. The new vehicle was known as the DW1 (Durchbrüchwagen, breakthrough vehicle). However, after one chassis with interleaved road wheel suspension had been built, trials were suspended to allow work to be carried out on a further design for a 65-ton tank, the VK6501. The VK6501 was itself a further development of the original PzKpfw VI NbFz. This project was cancelled to resume development of the DW 1. The improved model, the DW2, weighed 32 tons, accommodated a crew of five, and had to be armed with the short 75mm gun. Trials were carried out until 1941, when Henschel, Porsche, MAN and Daimler-Benz were invited to submit designs for a new vehicle in the same class and weight as the DW2.
Porsche's VK4501 prototype at Rastenburg
The Henschel version (VK3001H) was a continued development of the DW2, which superstructure resembled that of the PzKpfw IV, and had seven interleaved road wheels. It was planned to mount the 75mm L/48 gun in this vehicle, but the appearance of the Russian T-34 with its 76mm gun made the vehicle already obsolete and development was discontinued. The Porsche version (VK3001P) was a turretless prototype with several new features such as petrol-electric drive. With the order for the VK3001 an additional order has been placed for a 36-ton tank, the VK3601, which specifications included a powerful, high velocity gun, heavy armor and a maximum speed of at least 40 km/h. These specifications had been personally proposed by Hitler, who was impressed by the French "Char B1 bis" and the British Matilda I. Experimentel work on both the VK3001 and VK3601 was stopped when a further order for a 45-ton tank was received in May 1941. Designated VK4501, the intended vehicle was to mount a tank version of the 88mm gun, and the prototype should be ready in time for Hitler's birthday on 20 April 1942, when a demonstration was to be staged.
The early production Tiger I ausf. H with 'Feifel' air cleaning system at rear
Henschel decided to incorporate the best features of their VK3001H and VK3601H project into the new design as time was limited, while Porsche incorporated as many as possible of the design features from their VK3001P model. The demonstration of the two competing prototypes, the VK4501H and VK4501P, took place before Hitler at Rastenburg, when the Henschel design was considered to be superior. The new vehicle was designated PzKpfw VI Tiger Ausf. E. The Tiger was subsequently in production for two years, from August 1942 until August 1944, and in this period a total of 1350 vehicles were delivered out of 1376 ordered, indicative of the fact that the Tiger was conceived primarily as a fighting machine and not as a mass-production machine. Ninety Porsche Tigers were also ordered, partly as safeguard against delays or failure of the Henschel Tiger, of which the chassis was eventually used as basis for the heavy tank destroyer Ferdinand/Elefant. These vehicles made their unsuccessful battle debut in the Kursk tank battle.
Tiger with the old cupola....Tiger with the new cupola with rotating hatch
The Tiger I was the first German combat tank to be fitted with overlapping road wheel suspension, arranged with triple overlapping and interleaved wheels of a steel disc type with solid rubber tyres. The overlapping wheel system was adopted for optimum weight distribution. There were eight independently sprung torsion bar axles on each side, with the right hand axles trailed aft and the left hand axles led forward in order to carry all axles inside the hull. This resulted in an extremely soft and stable ride for a tank of this weight and size. Two types of track were used, one 725mm in wide was fitted for combat conditions, and a narrower one of 520mm in wide for travel and transportation. When the narrow tracks were fitted the outer wheels were removed from each suspension unit.
Tigers in northern Russia (winter 1943-1944) and in Normandy along the 'Carpet Bomber Alley'
Through this type of suspension gave a superior ride, it also had its drawbacks, one being that the interleaved wheels were liable to become packed with mud and snow during winter fighting, and if ignored until frozen this could jam the wheels. The Russians discovered this and took advantage by timing their attacks for dawn, when the vehicles were likely to have become immobilised during the night's frost. Very late production Tigers had steel disc type wheels with resilient internal rubber spring rims of the type fitted to the Tiger II. In these Tigers, the outside run of wheels was omitted, reducing both the icing-up problem and the overheating problem of the axle bearing.
A Tiger tank with a rough white winter scheme (winter 1943-1944)
The Tiger was technically the most sophisticated and best engineered vehicle of its time. The hull was divided in four compartments: the forward two housed the driver and hull gunner/radio-operator, the centre was the fighting compartment, and the engine compartment was at the rear. The driver sat on the left and steered by means of a wheel which acted hydraulically on the differential steering unit. Emergency steering was provided for by two steering levers on either side of the driver operating disc brakes. A visor was provided for the driver and was opened by a sliding shutter worked from a handwheel. Fixed episcopes were provided in both the driver's and radio-operator's escape hatches. The gearbox separated the two forward compartments, with the radio-operator seated on the right. He had a standard MG34 in a ball mounting in the front vertical plate, and had his radio sets mounted on a shelf to the operator's left.
The Tiger I crossing a devastated battlefield, in full killer-hunting action. Note the BT 7, in the background, destroyed. A second Tiger follows just behind.These Tigers are from sPzAbt.502.
The Tiger's centre fighting compartment had a floor suspended from the turret by three steel tubes and rotated with the turret. The breech mechanism of the 88mm gun reached almost to the inside rear turret wall, dividing the turret into two. Like the hull, the turret was a simple structure; the sides and rear were formed from a single 82mm thick plate curved horseshoe fashion. The front was joined by two 100mm thick rectangular bars, and the upper and lower edges of the turret sides converged towards the front to allow for movement of the mantlet. The turret roof was a single shaped 26mm thick plate, bent slightly forward of the centre line to match the sides at the front. External turret fittings were three 90mm smoke generators on either side towards the front and two stowage bins either side of the centre line at the rear. Two types of cupola were fitted to the Tiger; the original type had five vision slits and was of plain cylindrical appearance, while the later type had seven episcopes and had a less prominent hatch which swung out to the side.
Changing a broken torsion bar was heavy mechanical work while many road wheels had to be removed
In order to simplify assembly and allow the use of heavy armor plate, flat sections were used throughout the hull. Hull and superstructure were welded, in contrast to previous tanks were a bolted joint was used between hull and superstructure. The front and rear superstructure was in one unit and interlocking stepped joints, secured by welding, were used in construction of both the lower hull and superstructure. The top front plate of the hull covered the full width of the vehicle and permitted a turret ring to be fitted width enough to accomodate the 88mm gun. The Tigers used in North Africa, and in Russia in summer, were fitted with the feifel air cleaner system. This was attached to the rear of the hull and linked to the engine over the engine cover plate. The tropical Tigers were known as the Tiger (Tp), but the feifel air system was soon discontinued to simplify production. The first production Tiger's were equipped for a totally submerged wading with Snorkel breathing, but this proved an expensive luxury and was discarded.
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TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: armor; freeperfoxhole; germany; panzer; tanks; tiger; treadhead; veterans; wwii
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The Tiger I, with its 88 KwK 36 L/56 gun, coupled with superior optics, could accurately hit targets at ranges the enemy could not even aim at it.
The 88mm KwK 36 gun had ballistic characteristics similar to those of the famous FLAK 88mm high velocity AA gun from which it was derived. The principal modifications were the addition of a muzzle brake and electric firing. A MG34 was co-axially mounted in the left side of the mantlet and was fired by mechanical linkage from a foot pedal operated by the gunner. The weight of the barrel was balanced by a large coil spring housed in a cylinder on the left hand front of the turret. Elevation and hand traverse were controlled by handwheels to the right and left of the gunner respectively and an additional traverse was provided for the commander's use in an emergency. The hydraulic power traverse was controlled by a rocking footplate operated by the gunner's right foot.
A Tiger passes one of his victims, a Russian T34
Because of the turret's weight, traverse was low-geared both in hand and power. It took 720 turns of the gunner's handwheel to move the turret through 360o and power traverse through any large arc demanded a good deal of footwork and concentration by the gunner. Allied tanks were often able to take advantage of this limitation to get in the first shot when surprising a Tiger from the side or rear. In fact, this became almost standard procedure for engaging a Tiger, one tank attracting its attention from the front while one or two others attempted to work around to the more vulnerable flanks or rear. However, the fact that there were never sufficient Tigers to go round was probably the greatest comfort that opposing forces could take from their appearance.
Panzer Ace Michael Wittman and crew pose for propaganda photo in a French town. Late spring 1944
Early production Tiger's were fitted with 'S' mine dischargers on top of the superstructure, a total of five being mounted in various positions. These devices were installed for protection against infantry attacking with anti-tank weapons as magnetic mines. The 'S' mine was an anti-personnel bomb shaped like a jam jar and shot into the air where it exploded and scattered its content of steel balls. However, when the turret design was amended in late 1943 to incorporate a periscope similar to the Panther, a standard Nahverteidigungswaffe (close defence weapon) was fitted in the turret roof in place of the extractor fan, which was itself moved to the centre. This weapon had all-round traverse and was internally loaded.
Ferdinand Porsche (with the hat) and the PzKpfw VI VK 4501(P).
At the time of its debut in service in late 1942, the Tiger was an outstanding design among its contemporaries by virtue of its powerful gun and armor protection of up to 100mm thick. These factors made the 56-ton Tiger the most formidable fighting vehicle then in service. It was, however, relatively costly to produce in terms of man-hours and difficult to adapt for mass production. In January 1944, the heavier and superior Tiger II went into production with the result that fewer Ausf. E models were produced until production stopped in August 1944.
Along with his crew, Wittmann inspects the 88 "Kill Rings" on the gun barrel of their Tiger I Those kills earned him and gunner Bobby Woll the Knight's Cross
It was intended to use the Tiger as a heavy infantry or assault gun, and Tiger battalions were organised as independent units under GHQ troops into Heavy Tank Battalions (Schwere Panzer Abteilungen, sPzAbt). Armored divisions engaged in a major operation would receive an allotment of Tigers to spearhead an attack, but due to the Tiger's lack of manoeuvrability and relatively low speed, it was always considered necessary to employ lighter tanks in supporting platoons on the flank. Normally PzKpfw IIIs or IVs fulfilled this function. It was later decided to include Tigers in the basic organisation of armored divisions, but due to attrition which depleted the number of Tigers serviceable at any one time, it was only possible with Waffen-SS armored divisions. These divisions were among the first to receive Tigers, which went into service with famous divisions as the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte AH and the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich".
However, the Tiger's debut was not very sensational. Hitler was impatient to make use of the formidable weapon as soon as possible in September 1942, against the opinion of senior staff officers who favoured building up Tiger strength during the winter, and perfecting tactics and training for a mass Tiger offensive in Russia in the spring of 1943. Therefore, in the earliest Tiger action of the war, on 23 september 1942 on the Russian front, the employment of these formidable and sinister-looking vehicles was restricted to such limited numbers that resolute action by anti-tank gunners taking full advantage of the situation was more than enough to counter their impact. Four Tigers of Major Richard Marker's 1/sPzAbt 502 were committed along narrow forest tracks bordered by close coniferous trees, and were unable to give each other mutual fire support when Russian anti-tank gunners aimed for the vulnerable tracks. The Tigers forced to a halt, the battle-hardened Russian gunners sent round after round at the frontal armor, however, they did not succeed in effecting a penetration. The German crews had escaped but returned after dark, recovering three of the tanks (the fourth was immovable and blown apart).
The frontal vertical plating was massive enough to withstand virtually anything
On 12 January 1943, the Russians launched operation Iskra, intended to break the siege of Leningrad. The next day 1s/PzAbt 502, numbering 4 Tigers and 8 PzKpfw IIIs, had to assist the 96th Infantry Division which was attacked by 24 T-34s and T-60s. In a temperature of 28oC below zero, the Tigers were sent to the infantry's relieve, quickly destroying half the Russian tanks and chasing the rest back to their own lines. By the time spring arrived, the company had been credited with 163 kills, including T-34s and KVs.
Tiger in Africa
The British first encountered the Tiger in February 1943, near Pont du Fahs in Tunesia. Having received advance warning of the impending attack, the British anti-tank gunners were concealed with their 6-pounders with instructions to hold their fire until signalled. Two Tigers, flanked by nine PzKpfw IIIs and PzKpfw IVs, advanced with artillery support and were not engaged until the range had closed to 500 yards on each flank. Fire from the 6-pounder anti-tank battery knocked out both Tigers.
1
posted on
03/02/2004 12:00:33 AM PST
by
SAMWolf
To: snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo; Johnny Gage; Victoria Delsoul; Darksheare; Valin; bentfeather; radu; ..
In the absence of special recovery vehicles, and in violation of regulations, Tigers sometimes had to tow other broken tanks. These Tigers are of the 2nd Kompanie, sPzAbt. 101.
Although the Tiger had been conceiced as a powerful assault weapon, the changing tide of war in 1943/1944 meant that Tigers were more and more used in a defensive role, in which they were very successful. The Italian landscape was particularly suitable for the type of long-range defensive shooting in which the Tiger possessed a distinct advantage over its Allied counterparts, because it possessed not simply better weapons but also first-rate optical gunsights. On 22 June 1944, a single Tiger platoon of sPzAbt 504 stopped a Fifth Army attack dead in its tracks near Parolla, destroying 11 of the 23 Shermans which were leading the assault. The 12 survivors were abandoned by their crew and captured by the Germans by a counter-attack. Tiger's epitaph was written in France in 1944 where it finally proved its best not in attack but in defence; a Tiger which picked its spot and waited for the enemy to blunder onto it could execute enormous destruction.
The armor was so effective that the Allies had to develop special tactics to deal with the Tiger.
There were three Tiger tank variants:
The Panzerbefehlswagen (command tank), which was designated PzBefWg Tiger Ausf. E. This version was the normal fighting tank adapted for the fitting of additional wireless equipment.
BergepanzerTiger Ausf. E
The Tiger armored recovery vehicle, designated BergepanzerTiger Ausf. E. This was not more than a towing vehicle for assisting crippled or otherwise malfunctioning Tigers back to an area where repairs could be effected. The adaption involved the removal of the main armament, sealing of the mantlet, fixing the turret in traverse position and fitting a winch to the turret rear with a wide rope guide on the front. No lifting gear was provided.
Sturmtiger with the 38cm Rocket projector
The 38cm. Raketenwerfer 61 auf Sturmmörser Tiger. Also known as Sturmtiger or Sturmpanzer VI, this weapon was developed to requirements from the German army engaged in the heavy street fightings at Stalingrad and other similar places in Russia. The fighting troops had requested a self-propelled 21cm howitzer capable of following up the advancing troops and able to engage difficult targets with high angle fire. When development work was started no suitable gun of 21cm was available, and it was proposed to use the 38cm rocket projector (raketenwerfer 61 L/54) that had been developed as an anti-submarine weapon for the German navy. Limited production began in August 1944, a total of 18 Tigers being converted.
Interior view of the Sturmtiger
The hull of the Sturmtiger was similar to that of the Tiger Ausf. E but a fixed turret was superimposed on the hull with a single plate extending upwards from the rear edge of the standard Tiger glacis plate and sloped at 45 degrees to the vertical. The sides extended upwards at 20 degrees, and the rear plate started at the forward edge of the engine compartment top and was sloped at 10 degrees. The rocket projector which was breech loaded, was mounted offset to the right of the centre. A hand operated ammunition stowage crane was mounted at the off side of the superstructure rear plate; this was used to lift the rockets from the supply vehicle and lower them through the roof ammunition hatch. There were stowage arrangements for 12 rockets inside the vehicle, and the roof inside the compartment was fitted with overhead rails to assist loading.
SdKfz 184 Ferdinand/Elefant
As a safeguard against the failure of the Henschel design for the Tiger I, Porsche had been ordered to produce his design. When the results of the trials at Rastenburg were announced, and the Henschel design was judged to be superior, 90 Porsche vehicles were already produced. It was decided to utilize the chassis as the basis of a self-propelled carriage for the 88mm L/71 gun, designated as Jagdpanzer SdKfz 184 Ferdinand (adopted in honor of the designer, Dr Ferdinand Porsche). It featured a huge, box-shaped superstructure with only slightly sloped sides, and was heavily armored but highly underpowered.
Ferdinand (Elefant)
As with Tiger tanks, the Ferdinand heavy tank destroyers were assigned to a separate regiment, comprising two battalions. Jagdpanzer Regiment 656 had PzJagAbt. 653, commanded by major Steinwachs, and PzJagAbt. 654, under major Noak. The vehicles were all dark yellow with heavy sprayed lines of olive green, and carried three digit numbers in white to denote the battery, section, and vehicle. The Ferdinands of PzJagAbt. 654 also displayed a white N on the front left mudguard, denoting their battalion commander.
Heavybolted extra armor on the front hull
During operation Citadel at Kursk, the Ferdinands were used as break-through tanks, a role for which they were completely unsuited. Several Panzergrenadierers were carried with each vehicle for protection against Russian tank-killer infantry, but they were fully exposed and often unable to fight effectively from moving vehicles. The Ferdinand did not originally have a hull machine gun for self-defence and easily fell prey to Soviet infantry.
After its disastrous debut on the Eastern Front all surviving ones were modified to have a bow machine gun and a coat of zimmerit halfway up the superstructure. These improved vehicles were renamed Elefants and transferred to Italy. They had more success in the Italian campaign, being used in semi-static positions as true long range tank destroyers. However the chassis was very vulnerable to mines, as the loss of even one set of wheels rendered the Elefant immobile, and many damaged vehicles had to be abandoned. Vehicles in Italy were dark yellow with sprayed spots in red brown and olive green.
Additional Sources: www.3-d-models.com
www.achtungpanzer.com
www.fprado.com
www.sonnet.com
www.skalman.nu
2
posted on
03/02/2004 12:01:32 AM PST
by
SAMWolf
(John Kerry has mentioned his Vietnam service more times than there are names on the Vietnam Memorial)
To: All
Weight |
57 tons |
Crew |
5 |
Weapons |
88mm L56 KwK 36 gun with 92 rounds, 2 7.92mm MG 34 with 5700 rounds |
Armor |
hull 100mm (nose 100mm, sloped plate 60mm, sides 60-80mm, rear 80mm, top and bottom 26mm); turret 110mm (gun shield 110m, front 110mm, sides and rear 80mm, top 26mm) |
Engine |
694hp gasoline Maybach HL 230 P45, 12-cylinders on V, liquid cooled |
Speed |
37Km/h |
Range |
100Km |
Length (max) |
8.46m |
Width |
3.73m (battle tracks); 3,15m (transport tracks) |
Height |
2.90m |
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Advantages: heavy armor protection, heavy fire power (thanks to the mighty 88mm) at vast ranges
Disadvantages: great weight overloaded the transmission system and caused many mechanical faults; lack of mobility due to great weight and high fuel consumption
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3
posted on
03/02/2004 12:01:57 AM PST
by
SAMWolf
(John Kerry has mentioned his Vietnam service more times than there are names on the Vietnam Memorial)
To: All
4
posted on
03/02/2004 12:02:19 AM PST
by
SAMWolf
(John Kerry has mentioned his Vietnam service more times than there are names on the Vietnam Memorial)
To: Don W; Poundstone; Wumpus Hunter; StayAt HomeMother; Ragtime Cowgirl; bulldogs; baltodog; ...
FALL IN to the FReeper Foxhole!
It's TreadHead Tuesday!
Good Morning Everyone
If you would like added to our ping list let us know.
5
posted on
03/02/2004 2:55:36 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the freeper Foxhole.
Folks, please be sure to update your anti-virus software. There are quite a few viruses making the rounds in cyberspace.
6
posted on
03/02/2004 3:03:38 AM PST
by
E.G.C.
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.
Convair B-36 "Peacemaker"
7
posted on
03/02/2004 3:15:02 AM PST
by
Aeronaut
(Peace: in international affairs, a period of cheating between two periods of fighting.)
To: E.G.C.
Good morning EGC. I'm updated. I know Sam's daughter's computer was hit and our computers at work were hit last week. The slimy ones that produce these viruses seem to be busy as of late.
8
posted on
03/02/2004 3:19:28 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: Aeronaut
Good morning Aeronaut. Those props are on backwards. ;-)
9
posted on
03/02/2004 3:20:07 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: SAMWolf
The Tiger I was the first German combat tank to be fitted with overlapping road wheel suspension, arranged with triple overlapping and interleaved wheels of a steel disc type with solid rubber tyres.And a real hassle to change out when one of the road wheels falied, which they easily could on the German heavy tanks. You might have to remove three wheels to change one.
Walt
10
posted on
03/02/2004 3:53:58 AM PST
by
WhiskeyPapa
(Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
To: SAMWolf
Thanks Sam. Hurrah for TreadHead Tuesday!
11
posted on
03/02/2004 4:55:07 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: SAMWolf
Today's classic warship, USS Illinois (BB-65)
Iowa class battleship
As designed:
displacement. 45,000
length. 887'3"
beam. 108'3"
draft. 28'11"
speed. 33k.
complement. 1,921
armament. 9 16", 20 6", 80 40mm., 49 20mm.
Illinois (BB-65), Keel laid in January 1945 by Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Cancelled 12 August 1945 when 22% complete. Scrapped on the shipway in 1958.
12
posted on
03/02/2004 4:57:29 AM PST
by
aomagrat
To: snippy_about_it
At his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in. Numbers 27:21
You can't go wrong if you follow God's lead.
13
posted on
03/02/2004 5:04:35 AM PST
by
The Mayor
(There is no such thing as insignificant service for Christ.)
To: Aeronaut
That's a heck of an airplane. I was born at Rapid City AFB, SD (Later renamed Ellsworth AFB) The B-36's from the 28th Bomb Wing (Very Heavy) used to warm up their engines about 0400 and wake me up. For whatever reason I still wake up early even though the B-36's aren't around anymore.
14
posted on
03/02/2004 6:14:45 AM PST
by
CholeraJoe
(Pararescue: Don't call 911, call 243.0. I'll rappel down headfirst if I have to.)
To: WhiskeyPapa
Good morning Whiskey Papa
15
posted on
03/02/2004 6:16:54 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: snippy_about_it
G'morning, snippy!
16
posted on
03/02/2004 6:18:14 AM PST
by
Samwise
(According to Kerry, President Bush is under-reacting to an overstated threat)
To: aomagrat
Good morning aomagrat.
Cancelled 12 August 1945 when 22% complete. Scrapped on the shipway in 1958.
Took them awhile to decide to scrap what there was of her.
17
posted on
03/02/2004 6:18:25 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: snippy_about_it
Morning snippy. What were the Germans thinking? They may have had better tanks but most of their artillery and supplies were horse drawn. We had Ford and General Motors cranking out thousands of Jeeps and Deuce and a halfs.
18
posted on
03/02/2004 6:18:28 AM PST
by
CholeraJoe
(Pararescue: Don't call 911, call 243.0. I'll rappel down headfirst if I have to.)
To: The Mayor
Good morning Mayor.
19
posted on
03/02/2004 6:18:39 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: Samwise
Wow, not used to seeing you this early. Good morning.
20
posted on
03/02/2004 6:19:21 AM PST
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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