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To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; E.G.C.; Victoria Delsoul; Light Speed; U S Army EOD; colorado tanker

Senator Joe McCarthy (right) with .38 cal. snub-nosed revolver in the small of the back of Owen Lattimore (left), marching Lattimore into the corridor of the Senate office building during a recess in the hearings. A single shot was heard, then McCarthy reentered the chamber, alone.

Owen Lattimore was the chief architect of the betrayal of Chang Kai-shek, giving China to Mao Tse-tung (later, Zedong).

April Glaspy meets Neville Chamberlain, voila, Nelly Acheson.

Ann Coulter, Treason, Regnery, 2003, pp 150-1:

In one of the great moments of American statesmanship, in January of 1950, Truman's secretary of state, Dean Acheson, gave a speech at the National Press Club writing off South Korea. He excluded South Korea from America's defensive perimeter, saying, "It must be clear that no person can guarantee these areas against military attack."21 The speech made quite an impression on Stalin: With his blessing, North Korea attacked South Korea just five months later.22

General Douglas MacArthur: Farewell Address to Congress delivered April 19, 1951

I called for reinforcements but was informed that reinforcements were not available. I made clear that if not permitted to destroy the enemy built-up bases north of the Yalu, if not permitted to utilize the friendly Chinese Force of some 600,000 men on Formosa, if not permitted to blockade the China coast to prevent the Chinese Reds from getting succor from without, and if there were to be no hope of major reinforcements, the position of the command from the military standpoint forbade victory.

Thus did Truman insure defeat, just as Johnson did November 1965 when he refused the urgent request by the Joint Chiefs for permission to bomb Hanoi and mine Haiphong.

I asked our friend Hank Holzer about MacArthur and Korea and the ChiComs, he having done Chinese order of battle for Eighth Army. He mentioned a weakness in certain intelligence, a reluctance to accept certain other intelligence, and an unexplored question of MacArthur's intent.

Some discussion of the undercutting of the nation's interest appears in his new book:

The criticism of the effort by the Army in the campaign discussed today should be overlaid with the recognition of the inconceivable valor of the men on the ground, officers and enlisted alike.

That they--under the worst conditions of frigid cold, outnumbered, without communication, dangerously low on ammunition and supplies--should have hammered the red ants and stalled their advance is a signal achievement.

No, we can't just all get along.

We are still faced with a sawed-off psychopath serving as sock puppet for the beetles of Beijing.

A day to be thankful for the real men who held back the monster, fifty-three years ago, on the other side of the world.

Many Chosin Reservoir photos

Chosin Reservoir, Near Hagaru-ri 11/50

This M4 Sherman lost traction on the relatively flat MSR near Hagaru. Trying to navigate the mountainous route through Toktong pass to support the 5th and 7th Marines was just possible for the M4, almost impossible for the heavier and underpowered M26.

The tanks did provide invaluable artillery service around Hagaru when the Marines lacked enough manpower to control the heights around their base encampment. Later, during the fight-out, the tanks did supply critical support for the exhausted Marine Infantrymen.

Chosin Reservoir, Hagaru-ri 11/28/50, East Hill

This shows why the Marines were unable to rescue 7th Infantry Division's 31st RCT, which was destroyed only a few miles away, on the east coast of the Chosin Reservoir.

The Hagaru-ri valley was surrounded by commanding hills. Those vague shadows in the upper middle are still more and higher snow covered mountains. To put in a perimeter defense even on the near heights would mean manning about a four mile line, on the reverse slopes. This would take at least two infantry regiments. Lt. Col Tom Ridge, 3 Battn 1st Marines, had at his disposal for defense of Hagaru only two reinforced companies and a 6-gun 105mm battery.

With the few available tanks it was just possible to man a partial inner perimeter defense, on flat ground around Hagaru, and pray the enemy didn't have artillery to enfilade the camp. To weaken that defense force further by deploying units out of the perimeter in an attempt to relieve an Army force several times its size, while itself under attack by about the same size force attacking the Army RCT, would have been to risk the withdrawal route for the 5th and 7th Marines, and the whole of the First Marine Division.

In the event, there was much savage fighting just for East Hill, the immediate heights, before and after the 5th & 7th Marines reached Hagaru.

It took 22 hours of fierce fighting—and 600 more American casualties—to get from Hagaru to the next way point, Koto-ri. "Enemy units fought savagely," Erickson recalls, "mounting attacks from ridges towering above the road, setting ambushes and executing the wounded when hospital trucks could be isolated from the rest of the column."

Below Koto-ri, the biggest challenge was a 1,500-foot-deep chasm where the enemy had dynamited the lone bridge. "Crossing the chasm became a classic of engineering improvisation under fire," Trueblood said.

Eight 2-ton Treadway bridge sections, secured to the biggest parachutes that could be found, were dropped from C-119 Flying Boxcars flying at only 800 feet. "Marine patrols recovered six of the sections, but still came up short by seven feet," the leatherneck recalled.

The solution of engineers with the 1st Amphibious Tractor Bn. was grisly. They built a timber frame at one end of the bridge and filled it to road level.

"There wasn’t enough loose rock for the bulldozers to scrape up, but there were enough dead enemy soldiers frozen hard as rocks stacked up alongside the road, so they bulldozed them in and covered them up with dirt and we started to move," said the tank crewman, who by then was among the walking-but-still-fighting wounded.

Thirteen Americans earned the Medal of Honor in and around Chosin (Toktong Pass, Koto-Ri, Yudam-ni, Hagaru-ri):

Marine Capt. William E. Barber

Marine Pfc. William B. Baugh*

Marine Pvt. Hector A. Cafferata, Jr.

Marine Lt. Col. Raymond G. Davis

Army Lt. Col. Don C. Faith, Jr.* [pictured above]

Navy Lt. Thomas J. Hudner

Marine Sgt. James E. Johnson*

Marine Staff Sgt. Robert S. Kennemore

Marine 1st Lt. Frank N. Mitchell*

Marine Maj. Reginald R. Myers

Army Lt. Col. John U.D. Page*

Marine Capt. Carl L. Sitter

Marine Staff Sgt. William G. Windrich*

* Posthumous

A U.S. infantryman with a 75-mm recoilless rifle (rocket launcher) guards a pass south of the Chosin Reservoir. (DA photograph)

During daylight, when Corsairs were on station, the Chinese could not mass their troops to mount such attacks because, when they tried, they were immediately subjected to devastating air strikes with napalm, bombs, rockets and overwhelming 20mm strafing. Not one enemy mass attack was delivered against the column during daylight hours.

M-19 light tank with twin 40mm's, Korea
Bob Matis, 50thAAA Battalion

Nelson Ruiz at K-160
M-16 halftrack with Quad 50's

After the redeployment of the 7,000 U.S. troops from the DMZ to rear positions in 2004, Pyongyang was given an aid package from a B-2 on Thanksgiving Day of that year.

Kim Jong Il, pictured above with his command staff, had no immediate comment as this report went to press.

93 posted on 11/27/2003 5:22:55 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: PhilDragoo
A day to be thankful for the real men who held back the monster, fifty-three years ago, on the other side of the world.

Amen.

Thanks Phil

95 posted on 11/27/2003 5:38:39 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: PhilDragoo
Without personal knowledge, or having a good grasp of the entire situation, the thought that comes to mind about Chosin Reservoir and the Army and Marine units differing results is that it came about in the only way it could given the intel, thinking, and equipment on hand.
Neither group could support the other, it seems, and even if they could've tried, it would have been at higher casualties to each or the other.

May those that fell in that battle rest in peace.
96 posted on 11/27/2003 5:40:04 PM PST by Darksheare (Even as we speak, my 100,000 killer wombat army marches forth)
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To: PhilDragoo
Evening Phil Dragoo. Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for your contributions to the Chosin Reservoir topic.

We can only hope and pray that Kim and his ilk end up like this.

97 posted on 11/27/2003 5:43:13 PM PST by SAMWolf (Happy ThanksGiving from The Freeper Foxhole)
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To: PhilDragoo
China..still at war with the U.S.

China Reform Monitor No. 205, May 19, 1999
American Foreign Policy Council, Washington, D.C.

According to the FBI, Chinese hackers have attacked U.S. Government computer information systems, including the White House and Pentagon, in response to the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, reports Bill Gertz in the Washington Times. The FBI report, "China Cyber Activities," states, "Much of this [attack] activity traces back to Chinese addresses, and much of the reporting of this activity comes from official Chinese news sources."

The Pentagon and CIA have previously warned of such "asymmetrical warfare" incidents. According to Chinese military doctrinal writings, the People's Liberation Army is developing information-warfare capabilities designed to cripple communications systems and high-technology weapons. The FBI report said targets of the post-May 7 Chinese cyber-attacks have included the Departments of Interior, Energy and State, the U.S. Embassy in China and the White House." Pentagon computer systems were disrupted last week by mass e-mailings that are believed to have originated in China. On May 11, the official White House web site was shut down after an attempt was made to break into the system's operating page. According to the official China Daily newspaper, hackers broke into the official web site of the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and inserted the slogan "Down with the barbarians."

The FBI report did not say whether the Chinese government was behind the attacks. However, Stephen Bryen, a former Pentagon official, says the Chinese government maintains tight control over Internet service providers. It is unlikely cyber attacks could be launched by individuals without the approval of the government. Bryen said these incidents of Chinese electronic warfare indicate "the Chinese are just practicing," because the origin was not disguised. In more sophisticated attacks, it is difficult to detect the source.

CIA warns of Chinese cyber-attacks on U.S.

By Eric Lichtblau
Los Angeles Times
Published April 25, 2002

WASHINGTON -- U.S. intelligence officials believe the Chinese military is working to launch wide-scale cyber-attacks on American and Taiwanese computer networks, including Internet-linked military systems considered vulnerable to sabotage, according to a classified CIA report.

Moreover, U.S. authorities are bracing for a possible wave of hacking attacks by Chinese students against the United States in coming weeks, according to the analysis. The confidential alert, which was reviewed by The Times, was sent to intelligence officials a week ago.

Although U.S. officials have voiced concerns about individual hackers in China who have defaced federal and private Web sites, the United States has resisted publicly linking the Chinese government to those attacks or to broader cyber-style warfare.

The new CIA report, however, makes clear that U.S. intelligence analysts have become increasingly concerned that authorities in Beijing are actively planning to damage and disrupt U.S. computer systems through the use of Internet hacking and computer viruses.

Although the assessment concludes that China has not yet acquired the technical sophistication to do broad damage to U.S. and Taiwanese systems, it maintains that this is the "intended goal" of the People's Liberation Army in China. "The mission of Chinese special forces includes physical sabotage" of vulnerable systems, the report says--which some analysts said is driven by China's hostility toward Taiwan.

The Chinese Embassy in Washington insisted Wednesday, however, that Beijing is only conducting computer research that is strictly defensive in nature.

"It is not the Chinese government's policy to disrupt the computer system of any other country," said Larry Wu, an official in the embassy's science and technology section.

"We do research on the security of computers, of course--self-defense to understand how a hacker can get into our computer systems so we can defend it," he said. "But China has never assumed an offensive stance with regards to computer technology."

But several specialists in Chinese security and military affairs said the CIA's conclusions jibe with their own observations about China's research into offensive-minded cyber-tools.

"We should be very worried about this issue," said James Mulvenon, a China analyst at the Rand Corp. think tank who has done extensive studies into Chinese computer capabilities.

Taiwan, which China regards as a renegade province, appears to be the driving force behind the Chinese interest in hacking and viruses, Mulvenon said. Under one scenario, if China were to make good on its long-standing threat to invade Taiwan, the Chinese military could then seek to deploy widespread computer disruptions against American and Taiwanese military systems to slow any effort by U.S. forces to intervene in Taiwan's defense, he said.

The issue threatens to inflame what are invariably tense relations between the United States and the Communist regime in China, relations already frayed by a volley of charges and counter charges during the last several years over alleged nuclear, military and political espionage.

Relations hit a low point last year after a U.S. spy plane collided with a Chinese jet fighter, triggering an international standoff over the return of the plane's 24 Navy crewmen. China detained the crew members for 11 days and returned the disassembled plane months later.

Recent months have seen a warming in relations as the Bush administration secured China's cooperation in the war on terrorism. But China has become upset by what it sees as the White House's increasingly favorable overtures toward Taiwan.

The CIA's assessment discusses Taiwan and the United States, revealing that U.S. intelligence officials believe both are targets of the Chinese military.

"The People's Liberation Army does not yet have the capability to carry out its intended goal of disrupting Taiwanese military and civilian infrastructures or U.S. military logistics using computer virus attacks," said the CIA's report, which was included in a broader national security assessment that authorities distributed to intelligence officials.

"China's virus attack capabilities are similar to those of sophisticated hackers and are limited to temporary disruption of sectors that use the Internet," the CIA review said. "A Chinese virus attack is capable of reaching e-mail communications, lap tops brought into China, and U.S. Internet-based military computers."

A U.S. intelligence official who was briefed on the issue but asked not to be identified said analysts believe that, although the most sensitive U.S. military databases are secure from hackers and viruses, Internet-based military systems that are used for communications with bases around the world and with outside military vendors could be vulnerable.

"These aren't the keys to the kingdom we're talking about," the official said. "There's no danger that the Chinese are going to hack into our nuclear launch codes, but there is the danger they could gather useful intelligence from penetrating some of the less sensitive networks that the Department of Defense utilizes all over the world."

Recent U.S. intelligence indicates, the official said, "that the Chinese government is actively and aggressively working on their cyber-war capability. They have a lot of people and a lot of brainpower, and they're smart enough to appreciate that a significant aspect of any future armed conflict is going to be cyber in nature."

Another government official who asked not to be identified cautioned, however, that the immediate threat posed by Chinese computer disruptions is fairly limited.

"This is something we're certainly concerned about. But in terms of their being able to disrupt Taiwan or U.S. military and civilian infrastructure, they can't do it yet. That's the story."

The concept of nations launching cyber-attacks against their enemies is a relatively new phenomenon, but it is drawing rising concern from U.S. authorities as they assess vulnerability in the national computer infrastructure. In an effort to beef up security, budget planners are projecting an increase of more than 50% next year in overall computer security, bringing the total to more than $4 billion.

The CIA report does not reveal how intelligence analysts arrived at their conclusions, and Jonathan Pollack, chairman of the strategic research department at the Naval War College, cautioned that there are still many unanswered questions about China's plans.

"China is still an issue that worries Americans deeply, and sometimes the intelligence community gets a head of steam on these things and can go off on tangents that may not be substantiated," he said.

Last year, the spy plane confrontation triggered an avalanche of about 1,200 attacks against U.S. government and commercial Web sites that were disrupted or defaced. Many of the attacks appeared to have been generated by students in China, with private hackers leaving patriotic pro-China messages or vowing revenge for the death of a Chinese pilot in the plane collision. Several hundred attacks on Chinese Web sites were blamed on American hackers, although some U.S. technology experts discounted that explanation.

The CIA assessment said China's "nonstate hacking community continues to pose the most immediate threat to U.S. computer networks."

It went on to warn that hackers in China "appear to be organizing for cyber-attacks again this spring, particularly during student breaks early next month and around the anniversary of the EP-3 [surveillance plane] incident."

The anniversary of the EP-3 collision passed uneventfully this month. But private security groups say they too have picked up on possible Chinese-based attacks in coming weeks--tied to the plane episode as well as China's national youth day on May 4 and the May 8 anniversary of the U.S.'s accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in 1999.

"We're warning our people about it and making sure everyone has their Web sites updated with the proper patches" to guard against denial-of-service attacks and other hacking, said Michael Cheek, director of intelligence for iDefense, a security intelligence service that has government and corporate clients around the world.

The U.S. intelligence official said that analysts suspect last year's hackings had the "tacit blessing," and even perhaps the active involvement, of the Chinese government.

Indeed, a report due out next month from Mulvenon and the Rand Corp., which does research for the U.S. government, will allege that the Chinese government was directly involved in at least one round of hack attacks.

After a spate of attacks against Web sites in the United States, Australia, Canada and England maintained by the Falun Gong religious movement--which China considers an "evil cult"--Mulvenon said his investigation unearthed evidence showing that at least one U.S. attack originated with the Chinese Ministry of Public Security.

"It's very clear to us that this was the ministry's doing, and it was a deliberate attempt to smear Falun Gong," he said.

144 posted on 11/27/2003 7:28:53 PM PST by Light Speed
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To: PhilDragoo
BTTT!!!!!!!
158 posted on 11/28/2003 3:09:42 AM PST by E.G.C.
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