Posted on 08/23/2002 12:42:18 AM PDT by Schmedlap
A few issues, regarding the legalization of drugs that are currently illegal:
1) I have observed that many who object to the legalization of narcotics assume that legalization of private possession and use of narcotics also implies the legalization of criminal activities done under the influence of drugs. I do not understand this leap. In what way does not arresting people who use drugs in the privacy of their home imply that a police officer will just wave to a passing crack head, as he drives by at 80 miles per hour, smoking a crack pipe.
2) I have also observed that many who object to the legalization of narcotics assume that people who support legalization simply wants to use drugs - as if this matters. First off, the motivations of the proponents of legalization do nothing to alter the substance or lack thereof of their argument. But, just to address this wildly popular notion: I, for one, have no desire to use any drug that is currently illegal, nor do I hope to need or desire any drug that is legal for medicinal or recreational purposes. I rarely even drink beer. My objection to the government prohibition on certain drugs is on the grounds that what people do in the privacy of their homes is none of the government’s business, so long as it does not violate the rights of others. Whether you want to possess drugs, weapons, or beanie babies should be no concern of your neighbor, your police department, or any echelon of government, so long as it does not violate the rights of others. If you have 10 pounds of plutonium, for instance, that violates the rights of your neighbors. If you have 10 pounds of cocaine, that does not violate anybody’s rights.
3) Likewise, I do not understand why proponents of legalizing drugs take such weak stances in favor of it, such as “well, alcohol is worse for you than pot, and alcohol is legal.” This assumes that the government's actions can be justified by their probability of positively influencing your health. Evidence exists that smoking is worse for your health than alcohol, as well. Should we ban cigarettes and arrest anyone who purchases, distributes, or smokes them? Since when is it the government’s responsibility to protect a person from himself? The purpose of government is to secure our rights, by protecting private property, and attempting to safeguard us from hurting each other. In other words, government’s role is to stop a man about to commit murder, not to stop a terminally ill cancer patient about to euthanize himself.
The bottom line is that what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is none of the government’s business, nor is it the business of you or I, so long as people do not do direct harm to one another, one another’s property, or otherwise violate one another’s rights. Neither I, nor my government, have the right to tell you that you cannot snort cocaine in your home, whether you want to do it or not. The government has the right, and the duty, to arrest you if you attempt to drive on a public road, while under the influence of a drug, while impaired visually or mentally, or even if you have not had sufficient sleep to stay awake, while driving.
I welcome thoughtful responses to this post; particularly those which refute any of the arguments above, or offer suggestions to strengthen the arguments.
The drug user does take from me in that it is he and those like him who petition and pressure our goverment to institute programs which must be supported by myself against my will.
If you disagree, I would invite you to watch what happens to ANY politician who suggests limits or decreases to programs like Medi-cade, unemployment, etc. There is a reason the goverment is taking from me, it's because 200mil folks want it to.
How do you justify this?
I justify that statement by recognizing that a human who is intoxicated is acting with degraded reason, or no reason at all. It is the lack of reason that causes one to drive drunk, beat his family, do stupid things with guns and knives, vote for democrats.
In other words, be a danger to our community.
A human is by nature a rather dangerous being. It is the effects of civilization which moderate the actions of humans. Intoxication removes the limits civilization imposes on us and allows us to act out our less reasonable natures. In such a state we invariablly impose on the rights of our nieghbors.
Then go after the root cause of the problem, the welfare state!
Don't punish drug users, most of which do not ask for welfare of any sort.
I conceed your aurgument at this point.
Anyone who knows me, knows me as a near militant Pro-2nd Amendment type. Most of the infringements on my 2nd Amenment rights are due to the actions of a very small minority.
Let me say at this point that the reason I'm (l)ibertarian instead of (L)ibertarian is because of what I consider the extreme focus on the war on drugs.
Mike4Freedom makes an excellent point; "Then go after the root cause of the problem, the welfare state!" . It is my belief that if the LP would focus squarely on Constitutional freedoms and rights under the light of "original intent", the "war on drugs" thing would take care of it'self. It is unfortunate, that the LP is consumed with the fight for one right (the least defensable one IMHO) instead of all rights. If it were not for drug legalization. the LP and the Constitutional Party would look an awful lot alike.
The problem I am having, as do most (l)ibertarians and most GOP conservatives, is that though the pro-drug crowd may be aurguing on solid Constitution grounds, all we can see is a bunch of drugged out losers whinning for a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.
Though not true in all cases (I include all here of course), you must admitt that there is a significant number of people out there who don't give a rats a$$ about the Constitution, they just want cheap pot. And when these people destroy their lives they will EXPECT the tax payer to give them a helping hand.
If you doubt my point, just note one of the replies I got on this subject:
JUSTLURKING writes
" I'm WILLING TO RELENT ONE TIME for someone that needs medical help to kick an addiction. But only once, and only if the care is administered by a private organization and payment is structured so they have no incentive to prolong the treatment.
Do you see? There will ALWAYS be a good reason to pinch the Tax payer. I re-itterate my previous statement, that those who would enjoy the freedom to use drugs will NOT be willing to let me enjoy being left alone. I WILL be required to pick up the pieces of their useless lives.
G. K. Chesterton
Easy to do as is legalization
2. Dismantle< the Welfare State at all levels and restore private charity as the mode of choice for helping the less fortunate;
Damned near impossible to do in our lifetime if ever. So, the question remains, is it wise to legalize drugs within a welfare state?
1. What is the extent of legalization? Everything or just selected substances?
2. Will legalization be “phased” in over time as the legal infrastructure to produce each newly legalized substance is in place for distribution?
3. If a phased in approach is used, is the use still illegal, and if not, should the black-market supply be tolerated until a legal supply is placed into operation?
4. Should marijuana be a user grown substance without government regulation and control?
5. Should the Government regulate the range of known “hard” drugs? Should ALL drugs be legal for “recreational use”
6. How will the license to manufacture heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and other chemically altered substances be issued? Will it be the same as for alcohol and cigarettes? Should there even be a license requirement?
7. Who will decide the “safe and effective” dosage for the full range of legal substances? The FDA, the manufacture or the distributor?
8. Will the “hard” drugs be regulated as controlled substances requiring a doctor’s prescription for their use?
9. What is the liability for doctors that “prescribe” for recreational usage resulting in disability or death to the user?
10. Who will be the legal raw material product supplier? Coca leaves, poppy plants etc.?
11. Where will the point of sale be for chemically enhanced drugs? The local convenience store or drug store?
12. What tort laws must be repealed before the manufactures and distributors can safely provide these new recreational substances without the threat of bankruptcy from eager trial lawyers still purring after the tobacco lawsuits?
13. What Federal and State health and disability program regulations must be put into place to protect them from the very likely increase in addiction related disabilities caused by these suddenly legal activities?
14. Should the tort laws be too strong to break would we fall back to the same drug cartels we have now that have no fear of being sued?
15. Will the legalization of all drugs at the Federal level allow for individual states to keep their present anti-drug laws in place should they choose to do so?
16. How are private health and disability insurance plans that presently exclude illegal drug users from coverage protected once the excluded activity is legalized?
17. What is the anticipated increase in each individual’s policy if that exclusion is ruled discriminatory?
18. What are the contingency plans for unanticipated increases in addiction related treatment demands.
19. How restricted would the legal distributors be in advertising and marketing their products?
20. What would be the process for heretofore unheard of new drugs that are or could be in the works that hold the promise of ever-greater highs and pleasure?
Yours, mine, and the "impaired" driver's." Don't' forget about him.
"Therefore, it is acceptable for you and I to use government to define what one can and cannot do on our property."
But as I noted above, it's the "impaired" driver's property too. Why is it acceptable for you and I to use government to define what one can and cannot do on property that also belongs to someone else?
"We have deemed that it is unacceptable for a driver to drive on public roads, when mentally impaired."
"One of the ways that we quantify the subjective "impaired" is to define a set blood alcohol content which is deemed to sufficiently impair drivers to the point where they cannot drive safely. "
"Another way that we quantify the impairment of a driver is if he is under the influence of certain drugs other than alcohol."
These depend on it being acceptable for us to do so, and as noted above, you have not demonstrated that yet. Remember my question from post 45, to which (I think) you are responding was: "Why does the government have this right and duty if there is no direct harm or violation of rights?
"And, even if they were not reasonable to me, they would still be constitutional, in my opinion, because I do not see where anybody's rights are violated."
How about this:
"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. (The Declaration Of Independence)
""Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." (Thomas Jefferson)
If you "do not see where anybody's rights are violated" ("anybody" being the "impaired" driver, remember) then you must be able to see the "equal rights of others" which draw the limits outside which "anybody's" action (using public property which is the "anybody's" in question as well as yours and mine) may be obstructed. So what are they?
And my question from post 45 still stands.
The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 and the 1991 Supreme Court decision in Touby v US, fully explains the recent legislative and legal history of America's National Drug Control Policy. My post at RE:#9, gives the links to the two actual cases I mention.
Most conservatives and most Republicans support America's National Drug Control policy. Most conservatives and most Republicans also don't favor the decriminalization or legalization of illicit drugs in America. The libertarian philosophy and the Libertarian Party Platform, is in direct oppostion America's National Drug Control Policy.
The following is what President and Mrs.Reagan had to say about drug abuse, back in 1986. ____________________________________________________________ Reagan
On the campaign against drug abuse
September 14, 1986
Good evening.
Usually, I talk with you from my office in the West Wing of the White House. But tonight there's something special to talk about, and I've asked someone very special to join me. Nancy and I are here in the West Hall of the White House, and around us are the rooms in which we live. It's the home you've provided for us, of which we merely have temporary custody.
Nancy's joining me because the message this evening is not my message but ours. And we speak to you not simply as fellow citizens but as fellow parents and grandparents and as concerned neighbors. It's back-to-school time for America's children. And while drug and alcohol abuse cuts across all generations, it's especially damaging to the young people on whom our future depends. So tonight, from our family to yours, from our home to yours, thank you for joining us.
America has accomplished so much in these last few years, whether it's been re-building our economy or serving the cause of freedom in the world. What we've been able to achieve has been done with your help-with us working together as a nation united. Now we need your support again. Drugs are menacing our society. They're threatening our values and undercutting our institutions. They're killing our children.
From the beginning of our administration, we've taken strong steps to do something about this horror. Tonight I can report to you that we've made much progress. Thirty-seven Federal agencies are working together in a vigorous national effort, and by next year our spending for drug law enforcement will have more than tripled from its 1981 levels. We have increased seizures of illegal drugs. Shortages of marijuana are now being reported. Last year alone over 10,000 drug criminals were convicted and nearly $250 million of their assets were seized by the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Administration.
And in the most important area, individual use, we see progress. In 4 years the number of high school seniors using marijuana on a daily basis has dropped from 1 in 14 to 1 in 20. The U.S. military has cut the use of illegal drugs among its personnel by 67 percent since 1980. These are a measure of our commitment and emerging signs that we can defeat this enemy. But we still have much to do.
Despite our best efforts, illegal cocaine is coming into our country at alarming levels and 4 to 5 million people regularly use it. Five hundred thousand Americans are hooked on heroin. One in twelve persons smokes marijuana regularly. Regular drug use is even higher among the age group 18 to 25 most likely just entering the workforce. Today there's a new epidemic: smokable cocaine, otherwise known as crack. It is an explosively destructive and often lethal substance which is crushing its users. It is an uncontrolled fire.
And drug abuse is not a so-called victimless crime. Everyone's safety is at stake when drugs and excessive alcohol are used by people on the highways or by those transporting our citizens or operating industrial equipment. Drug abuse costs you and your fellow Americans at least $60 billion a year.
From the early days of our administration, Nancy has been intensely involved in the effort to fight drug abuse. She has since traveled over 100,000 miles to 55 cities in 28 States and 6 foreign countries to fight school-age drug and alcohol abuse. She's given dozens of speeches and scores of interviews and has participated in 24 special radio and TV tapings to create greater awareness of this crisis. Her personal observations and efforts have given her such dramatic insights that I wanted her to share them with you this evening.
Nancy.
Thank you. As a mother, I've always thought of September as a special month, a time when we bundled our children off to school, to the warmth of an environment in which they could fulfill the promise and hope in those restless minds. But so much has happened over these last years, so much to shake the foundations of all that we know and all that we believe in. Today there's a drug and alcohol abuse epidemic in this country, and no one is safe from it not you, not me, and certainly not our children, because this epidemic has their names written on it. Many of you may be thinking: "Well, drugs don't concern me." But it does concern you. It concerns us all because of the way it tears at our lives and because it's aimed at destroying the brightness and life of the sons and daughters of the United States.
For 5 years I've been traveling across the country learning and listening. And one of the most hopeful signs I've seen is the building of an essential, new awareness of how terrible and threatening drug abuse is to our society. This was one of the main purposes when I started, so of course it makes me happy that that's been accomplished. But each time I meet with someone new or receive another letter from a troubled person on drugs, I yearn to find a way to help share the message that cries out from them . As a parent, I'm especially concerned about what drugs are doing to young mothers and their newborn children. Listen to this news account from a hospital in Florida of a child born to a mother with a cocaine habit: "Nearby, a baby named Paul lies motion less in an incubator, feeding tubes riddling his tiny body. He needs a respirator to breathe and a daily spinal tap to relieve fluid buildup on his brain. Only 1 month old, he's already suffered 2 strokes."
Now you can see why drug abuse concerns every one of us-all the American family. Drugs steal away so much. They take and take, until finally every time a drug goes into a child, something else is forced out like love and hope and trust and confidence. Drugs take away the dream from every child's heart and replace it with a nightmare, and it's time we in America stand up and replace those dreams. Each of us has to put our principles and consciences on the line, whether in social settings or in the workplace, to set forth solid standards and stick to them. There's no moral middle ground. Indifference is not an option. We want you to help us create an outspoken intolerance for drug use. For the sake of our children, I implore each of you to be unyielding an d inflexible in your opposition to drugs.
Our young people are helping us lead the way. Not long ago, in Oakland, California, I was asked by a group of children what to do if they were offered drugs, and I answered, "Just say no." Soon after that, those children in Oakland formed a Just Say No club, and now there are over 10,000 such clubs all over the country. Well, their participation and their courage in saying no needs our encouragement. We can help by using every opportunity to force the issue of not using drugs to the point of making others uncomfortable, even if it means making ourselves unpopular.
Our job is never easy because drug criminals are ingenious. They work everyday to plot a new and better way to steal our children's lives, just as they've done by developing this new drug, crack. For every door that we close, they open a new door to death. They prosper on our unwillingness to act. So, we must be smarter and stronger and tougher than they are. It's up to us to change attitudes and just simply dry up their markets.
And finally, to young people watching or listening, I have a very personal message for you: There's a big, wonderful world out there for you. It belongs to you. It's exciting and stimulating and rewarding. Don't cheat yourselves out of this promise. Our country needs you, but it needs you to be clear-eyed and clear-minded. I recently read one teenager's story. She's now determined to stay clean but was once strung out on several drugs. What she remembered most clearly about her recovery was that during the time she was on drugs everything appeared to her in shades of black and gray and after her treatment she was able to see colors again.
So, to my young friends out there: Life can be great, but not when you can't see it. So, open your eyes to life: to see it in the vivid colors that God gave us as a precious gift to His children, to enjoy life to the fullest, and to make it count. Say yes to your life. And when it comes to drugs and alcohol just say no.
The President.
I think you can see why Nancy has been such a positive influence on all that we're trying to do. The job ahead of us is very clear. Nancy's personal crusade, like that of so many other wonderful individuals, should become our national crusade. It must include a combination of government and private efforts which complement one another. Last month I announced six initiatives which we believe will do just that.
First, we seek a drug-free workplace at all levels of government and in the private sector. Second, we'll work toward drug-free schools. Third, we want to ensure that the public is protected and that treatment is available to substance abusers and the chemically dependent. Our fourth goal is to expand international cooperation while treating drug trafficking as a threat to our national security. In October I will be meeting with key U.S. Ambassadors to discuss what can be done to support our friends abroad. Fifth, we must move to strengthen law enforcement activities such as those initiated by Vice President Bush and Attorney General Meese. And finally, we seek to expand public awareness and prevention.
In order to further implement these six goals, I will announce tomorrow a series of new proposals for a drug-free America. Taken as a whole, these proposals will toughen our laws against drug criminals, encourage more research and treatment and ensure that illegal drugs will not be tolerated in our schools or in our workplaces. Together with our ongoing efforts, these proposals will bring the Federal commitment to fighting drugs to $3 billion. As much financing as we commit, however, we would be fooling ourselves if we thought that massive new amounts of money alone will provide the solution. Let us not forget that in America people solve problems and no national crusade has ever succeeded without human investment. Winning the crusade against drugs will not be achieved by just throwing money at the problem.
Your government will continue to act aggressively, but nothing would be more effective than for Americans simply to quit using illegal drugs. We seek to create a massive change in national attitudes which ultimately will separate the drugs from the customer, to take the user away from the supply. I believe, quite simply, that we can help them quit. and that's where you come in.
My generation will remember how America swung into action when we were attacked in World War II. The war was not just fought by the fellows flying the planes or driving the tanks. It was fought at home by a mobilized nation men and women alike building planes and ships, clothing sailors and soldiers, feeding marines and airmen; and it was fought by children planting victory gardens and collecting cans. Well, now we're in another war for our freedom, and it's time for all of us to pull together again. So, for example, if your friend or neighbor or a family member has a drug or alcohol problem, don't turn the other way. Go to his help or to hers. Get others involved with you clubs, service groups, and community organizations-and provide support and strength. And, of course, many of you've been cured through treatment and self-help. Well, you're the combat veterans, and you have a critical role to play. you can help others by telling your story and providing a willing hand to those in need. Being friends to others is the best way of being friends to ourselves. It's time, as Nancy said, for America to "just say no" to drugs.
Those of you in union halls and workplaces everywhere: Please make this challenge a part of your job every day. Help us preserve the health and dignity of all workers. To businesses large and small: we need the creativity of your enterprise applied directly to this national problem. Help us. And those of you who are educators: Your wisdom and leadership are indispensable to this cause. From the pulpits of this spirit filled land: we would welcome your reassuring message of redemption and forgiveness and of helping one another. On the athletic fields: You men and women are among the most beloved citizens of our country. A child's eyes fill with your heroic achievements. Few of us can give youngsters something as special and strong to look up to as you. Please don't let them down.
And this camera in front of us: It's a reminder that in Nancy's and my former profession and in the newsrooms and production rooms of our media centers you have a special opportunity with your enormous influence to send alarm signals across the Nation. To our friends in foreign countries: We know many of you are involved in this battle with us. We need your success as well as ours. When we all come together, united, striving for this cause, then those who are killing America and terrorizing it with slow but sure chemical destruction will see that they are up against the mightiest force for good that we know. Then they will have no dark alleyways to hide in.
In this crusade, let us not forget who we are. Drug abuse is a repudiation of everything America is. The destructiveness and human wreckage mock our heritage. Think for a moment how special it is to be an American. Can we doubt that only a divine providence placed this land, this island of freedom, here as a refuge for all those people on the world who yearn to breathe free?
The revolution out of which our liberty was conceived signaled an historical call to an entire world seeking hope. Each new arrival of immigrants rode the crest of that hope. They came, millions seeking a safe harbor from the oppression of cruel regimes. They came, to escape starvation and disease. They came, those surviving the Holocaust and the Soviet gulags. They came, the boat people, chancing death for even a glimmer of hope that they could have a new life. They all came to taste the air redolent and rich with the freedom that is ours. What an insult it will be to what we are and whence we came if we do not rise up together in defiance against this cancer of drugs.
And there's one more thing. The freedom that so many seek in our land has not been preserved without a price. Nancy and I shared that remembrance 2 years ago at the Normandy American Cemetery in France. In the still of that June afternoon, we walked together among the soldiers of freedom, past the hundreds of white markers which are monuments to courage and memorials to sacrifice. Too many of these and other such graves are the final resting places of teenagers who became men in the roar of battle.
Look what they gave to us who live. Never would they see another sunlit day glistening off a lake or river back home or miles of corn pushing up against the open sky of our plains. The pristine air of our mountains and the driving energy of our cities are e theirs no more. Nor would they ever again be a son to their parents or a father to their own children. They did this for you, for me, for a new generation to carry our democratic experiment proudly forward. Well, that's something I think we're obliged t o honor, because what they did for us means that we owe as a simple act of civic stewardship to use our freedom wisely for the common good.
As we mobilize for this national crusade, I'm mindful that drugs are a constant temptation for millions. Please remember this when your courage is tested: You are Americans. You're the product of the freest society mankind has ever known. No one, ever, has the right to destroy your dreams and shatter your life.
Right down the end of this hall is the Lincoln Bedroom. But in the Civil War that room was the one President Lincoln used as his office. Memory fills that room, and more than anything that memory drives us to see vividly what President Lincoln sought to save. Above all, it is that America must stand for something and that our heritage lets us stand with a strength of character made more steely by each layer of challenge pressed upon the Nation. We Americans have never been morally neutral against any form of tyranny. Tonight we're asking no more than that we honor what we have been and what we are by standing together.
Now we go on to the next stop: making a final commitment not to tolerate drugs by anyone, anytime, anyplace. So, won't you join us in this great, new national crusade?
God bless you, and good night.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.