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To: bamahead
Please enlighten me on which of God's laws calls for the prohibition of drugs by the state. I don't recall reading that anywhere. Does it explicitly state this?

Remember my earlier post my friend: "...the magistrate, the ruler, "is the minister of God to thee for good" (vs. 4). The ruler is God's minister, His diakonos. He is a deacon, a laborer, a ministrant, an attendant to people for God. As the derivation of diakonos shows, he is one who runs errands: God's errands. In particular, he is to be a Christian teacher and pastor."

Therefore it is civil government's duty to legislate according to God's laws. With that in mind, let's see what God says about intoxicants:

Corinthians 6 verses 19 - 20 Revised Standard Version:
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

I found the attached link written by two conservatives showing the threat of illegal drug legalization. The following shows bibical sources proving their point: " There are, however, much deeper roots to the conservative objection: The conservative philosophy is grounded in and guided by eternal truths; it does not separate itself from God. It moves toward God, and it understands freedom in the way God intended freedom to be exercised.
A Biblical verse that explains this is Paul's Galatians 5:13-14: "For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Note the caveat, the "but" that follows, "For you were called for freedom, brothers." This is not a hedonistic or uncontrolled freedom."
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=18179

A similar tact was taken by the prohibitionists...

While biblical verses are aplenty on the use/misuse of alcohol, let's talk secular for a minute.

Prohibition was overturned at a time when our country was still dominated by a Christian culture. The people had "moral restraints" and made laws for those that didn't when it came to alcohol. While some of the following laws still exist today, they've been loosened if not totally abolished in many places throughout the US.

Intoxicated in public ordinances (i.e. a night in the drunk tank).
Open container laws.
The prohibition of the sale of alcohol on Sunday.
Regulations on who and when alcoholic beverages can be sold.
In general our society has become one of much less virtue; and you want to open up the floodgates promoting drug usage to our current society knowing the devastation that alcohol use has done to our society? (Here's comes the standard libertarian speech saying "There will be victims along the way to true individual liberty".).

And do you really think that 'metal detectors' are the fruit of immoral libertarian behavior?

Yes, metal detectors are the fruit of IMMORAL BEHAVIOR. Behavior that is based on moral relativism, not God's laws. When a woman walks into a building and starts shooting her co-workers because she didn't get tenure, biblical scripture and things like "thou shalt not murder" are the last things on her mind.

So it's now immoral to concealed carry?

The right to keep and bare arms is not only a constitutional right, but an "unalienable right" (something given to us by God that can't be taken away by man under any circumstances). Don't confuse something like a gun that is used for good, yet has been hijacked by evil as well, with drugs that are inherently used to get hiiiiiiiigh and escape reality.
http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know. -- Thomas Jefferson

While Thomas Jefferson was only one player in the Founding of our Christian nation (one of the least religious), his actions speak louder than the words you've posted:

" “Mr. Jefferson,” says Randall, “was a public professor of his belief in the Christian religion. In all his most important early state papers, such as his Summary View of the Rights of British America, his portion of the Declaration made by Congress on the causes of taking up arms, the Declaration of Independence, the draft of a Constitution for Virginia, &c., there are more or less pointed recognitions of God and Providence. In his two inaugural addresses as President of the United States, and in many of his annual messages, he makes the same recognitions, clothes them on several occasions in the most explicit language, substantially avows the God of his faith to be the God of revelation, declares his belief in the efficacy of prayer and the duty of ascriptions of praise to the Author of all mercies, and speaks of the Christian religion, as professed in his country, as a benign religion, evincing the favor of Heaven. “Had his wishes been consulted, the symbol borne on the national seal would have contained our public profession of Christianity as a nation. “He contributed freely to the erection of Christian churches, gave money to Bible societies and other religious objects, and was a liberal and regular contributor to the support of the clergy.He attended church with as much regularity as most members of the congregation, sometimes going alone on horseback when his family remained at home. He generally attended the Episcopal church, and, when he did so, always carried his prayer-book and joined in the responses and prayers of the congregation.” The establishment of the University of Virginia occupied the closing years of Jefferson’s life. His wish was to make the institution rival the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge in England, and afford opportunities for young men to become thoroughly accomplished in every branch of learning. A part of his plan was a theological seminary in connection with the university. Rev. Mr. Tucker, of Virginia, in the Presbyterian synod, met in 1859, said that “the establishment of a theological seminary near the University of Virginia was carrying out the original idea of Mr. Jefferson. He had seen in Mr. Jefferson’s own handwriting, the pains-taking style of the olden time, a sketch of his plan. The University of Virginia was the crowning glory of that great man’s life, and he felt it his duty to vindicate his memory, as he had it in his power to do, from any intention to exclude religious influences from the institution. He had invited all denominations to establish theological schools around the university, so that all might have the literary advantages of the institution, without making it subservient to one denomination.”
From "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States: pages 168/169.

72 posted on 02/21/2010 8:30:12 AM PST by aSeattleConservative
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To: aSeattleConservative
While Thomas Jefferson was only one player in the Founding of our Christian nation (one of the least religious), his actions speak louder than the words you've posted:

I don't argue that Mr. Jefferson was not a Christian at all in his actions my friend, just not in his PUBLIC words and actions. Based on his quotes, he did not support your belief that it is the duty of government to support God's law, an particluarly the moral dictates of certain sects of Christianity. That's the libertarian aruguement against the government legislation of morality, and Jefferson's actions as president are wholly supportive of this notion. A good example is his refusal to institute a national day of prayer while president:

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority.
But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the US an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.... I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it's exercises, it's discipline, or it's doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting & prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, & the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the constitution has deposited it. I am aware that the practice of my predecessors may be quoted.... Be this as it may, every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, & mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the US and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents. -- Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808


Jefferson thought it best to legistate laws based on morality 'that binds each of us seperately'. And he asbsolutely refused to bind the government with religion in the manner that you suggest. His actions and words prove this. He believed in an absolute wall of seperation when it came to government prescribing religious ceremonies. Jefferson's 'Wall of Seperation' letter (http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html), shows he also did not believe in government endorsing the moral dictates of specific sects of Christianity, or any religion for that matter.

Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone.-- Thomas Jefferson

My arguement to you was that the prohibiton of certain substances for consumption is the fruit of specific brands of religous dogma...not God's specific, codified law in the Bible -ie: Thou shalt not kill, thou shall not committ adultery, etc. You haven't really provided any proof to the contrary on that.

Speaking of which - if it's government's job to legislate God's law...why is there no federal statute making adultrey a crime? Since this is more noticably codified in God's law than the consumption of substances...it would reason based on your logic, that there would be a federal mandate against it.

Your question:

In general our society has become one of much less virtue; and you want to open up the floodgates promoting drug usage to our current society knowing the devastation that alcohol use has done to our society?


I'd argue that the level of devestation you speak of friend was caused by alcohol at all. When compared to the alterative of prohibition, which wreaks absoute havoc. Alcohol Prohibition resulted in a 24% increase in the average crime rate in major U.S. cities. And the statistical increase was not based solely on arrests for consumption/possession, nor did it decrease the desire of the citizenry to use it:

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00492/Crime_Rate.htm

The rate of arrests on account of drunkenness rose 41 percent, and arrests for drunken driving increased 81 percent. Thefts rose 9 percent, and assault and battery incidents rose 13 percent. Before Prohibition, there had only been 4000 federal convicts, and less than 3000 were housed in federal prisons. By 1932, the number of federal convicts had increased 561 percent and the federal prison population increased by 361 percent. Over 2/3 of all prisoners in 1930 were convicted on alcohol and drug charges.

How's that for devestation? There is absolutely statistical no proof whatsoever that legislating the specific brand of morality practiced by certain sects of Christianity improves the moral fabric of society. Statistics prove quite the opposite. An overbearing, energetic government that makes criminals out of people for their exercise of free will and human nature what we libertarians refer to a 'moral tyranny', and we have plenty of statistics to back up that notion.
73 posted on 02/21/2010 10:27:39 AM PST by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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