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To: uxbridge
But could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of her history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck. Even today, individual income taxes account for only approximately one-third of federal revenue. Eliminating one-third of the proposed 2007 budget would still leave federal spending at roughly $1.8 trillion-- a sum greater than the budget just 6 years ago in 2000! Does anyone seriously believe we could not find ways to cut spending back to 2000 levels? Perhaps the idea of an America without an income tax is not so radical after all. It’s something to think about this week as we approach April 15th.

Cute statement, thoroughly irrelevant.

Yes, we got along without an income prior to 1913, but Paul isn't running in the 1912 elections, it's 2007.

And GWB did dramatically increase spending, and a 40% spending cut would get us near 2000 levels (Clinton's favorite year too), which is thoroughly irrelevant as regards the income tax.

I'll reproduce a previous post below. Show me how Ron Paul is going to run the government on $155 billion.

Answer, he's not, he's not serious, he's just tossing red meat to the uninformed.

--------------

 It's not 2000 anymore. Wikipedia is adequate for this. 2007 estimates. Scrap the income tax without replacement, you reduce receipts from $2.4 trillion to about $1.04 trillion.

Expenses (social security, medicare, debt interest) of about $1.22 trillion. How do you run the government?

OK, scrap social security and medicare and default on the debt. That's feasable in the real world. Now you've got $155 billion in revenue to run the government on.

Which expenditures do you keep?

It's an irresponsible "plan", there is no plan, which puts both Republicans and the issue of tax reform in a bad light.

But it get's whoops and hollers for Paul.

Total receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2007 were $2.4 trillion.
$1.1 trillion - Individual income tax
$884.1 billion - Social Security and other payroll taxes
$260.6 billion - Corporate income tax
$74.6 billion - Excise taxes
$28.1 billion - Customs duties
$23.7 billion - Estate and gift taxes
$48.4 billion - Other
Total spending

The President's budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

$699 billion (+4.0%) - Defense
$586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
$394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
$367.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
$276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
$243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
$89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
$76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
$72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
$43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
$33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
$32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
$27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
$26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
$25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
$23.5 billion (+0.0%) - Energy
$20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government

 


47 posted on 10/03/2007 2:03:32 PM PDT by SJackson (isolationism never was, never will be acceptable response to[expansionist] tyrannical governments)
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To: SJackson
******Cute statement, thoroughly irrelevant.

Yes, we got along without an income prior to 1913, but Paul isn’t running in the 1912 elections, it’s 2007.

And GWB did dramatically increase spending, and a 40% spending cut would get us near 2000 levels (Clinton’s favorite year too), which is thoroughly irrelevant as regards the income tax.*******

You have to remember that these things will be done in stages. Ron Paul knows that you can’t undo 90 years of problems with the stroke of a pen.

Also Ron Paul will fund, or at least partially fund, the federal government with “a uniform, but not a protectionist tariff.” Many economists believe that a “revenue” tariff will not harm free trade. I think any level of tariffs will help bring good jobs back to the country.

52 posted on 10/03/2007 3:06:55 PM PDT by jmeagan (Our last chance to change the direction of the country -- Ron Paul)
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To: SJackson
Well...lets assume that when a President puts his hand on the Bible and takes a sacred oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" that he's actually serious...I know its been a long time since a President took his oath seriously...but lets assume we would want the next President to do so. You can read Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution...it lists out the powers of the federal government. The 9th and 10th Amendments made clear what those who ratified the Constitution knew...if a power is not given to the federal government...they don't have it and any attempt to execute powers it does not have is a violation of the Constitution. You can read the powers...or consider Madison's summary of the powers from the Federalist 45:

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negociation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will for the most part be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people; and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

So, from your list of budget outlays, we can, if we are serious about the Constitution, eliminate Social Security (the Supreme Court has several times held that SS is not an insurance program...no one has any interest in payroll taxes they've paid...its merely a welfare giveaway for those who reach a certain age...so no need to concern ourselves that we're defaulting on SS benefits), Medicare, Medicaid and all health related expenditures, Unemployment and welfare, Education and training, Natural resources and environment, Agriculture, Community and regional development, Science and technology and Energy. Reduce Transportation by half or more...eliminate Foreign Affairs to the extent that it is foreign aid or financing for international agencies that the US government has no constitutional authority to be funding...and then adjust the remaining taxes to get you what you need.

With the economic boom created by eliminating the income tax, the government may have far more revenue than it needs to meet its Constitutional obligations

53 posted on 10/03/2007 3:11:45 PM PDT by uxbridge
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To: SJackson
Easily done. Watch:

Total receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2007 were $2.4 trillion.
$1.1 trillion - Individual income tax
$884.1 billion - Social Security and other payroll taxes
$260.6 billion - Corporate income tax
$74.6 billion - Excise taxes
$28.1 billion - Customs duties
$23.7 billion - Estate and gift taxes
$48.4 billion - Other

Total spending

The President's budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

$699 500 billion - Defense(cuts are for expenses of maintaining troops in Europe, Asia, and other places NOT part of an active war zone)
$586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
$394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
$367.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
$276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
$243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
$89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
$76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
$72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
$43 2.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
$33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
$32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
$27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
$26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
$25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
$23.5 billion (+0.0%) - Energy

$20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government

Now, selling off about 99 percent of NON-military-affiliated federally held lands would allow some latitude to get rid of one of the highest pieces of spending left, the interest on the debt... but once the debt is paid, NO MORE, ever. You can see where the Unconstitutional Spending could be dumped with very little impact on your average American, except for a major increase in his personal wealth as he was no longer constrained to pay over half or more of his substance to a bloated and evil government.

73 posted on 10/03/2007 7:50:23 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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