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Actually, Virginia, Father Gruner is Not Suspended
The Remnant / The Fatima Network ^ | Aug. 31, 2003 | Christopher A. Ferrara

Posted on 09/15/2003 7:20:44 PM PDT by Dajjal

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1 posted on 09/15/2003 7:20:45 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Salvation; maryz; narses; ultima ratio; american colleen; Aquinasfan; Scupoli; Maximilian; ...
Our Lady of Fatima / Consecration of Russia ping
2 posted on 09/15/2003 7:21:58 PM PDT by Dajjal
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This article was published in The Remnant of Aug. 31, 2003; but it's online at the Fatima Network.
3 posted on 09/15/2003 7:24:07 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
Bump
4 posted on 09/15/2003 7:26:55 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Dajjal
I don't know anything about this punishment, but I have a question. Sister Lucia recently said that Russia was consecrated. Wouldn't she know?
5 posted on 09/15/2003 7:34:19 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
...I have a question. Sister Lucia recently said that Russia was consecrated. Wouldn't she know?

Bump to check on tomorrow.  FReegards.
6 posted on 09/15/2003 8:05:26 PM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: Dajjal
Got no use for The Remnant. Hate to say it, but this time The Remnant seems to have got one on the money.
7 posted on 09/15/2003 8:16:14 PM PDT by findingtruth
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To: nickcarraway; GirlShortstop
I don't know anything about this punishment, but I have a question. Sister Lucia recently said that Russia was consecrated. Wouldn't she know?

Sister Lucia was not allowed to speak when she went out in public at the beatification of Jacinta and Francisco Marto in 2000, nor do we have any evidence written by her hand (since 1980) regarding the consecration formula, nor are there any reports from nonpartisans on the matter. Claimants from both sides have said that "Sr. Lucia told them." I am particulary skeptical of Archbishop Bertone's claims in 2001.

Here is a chronology of events regarding Sr. Lucia's thoughts on the consecration. Yes, it is posted at Fr. Gruner's organization's website, so feel free to add any salt and read between any lines as you see fit, but it does list the dramatis personae involved and the order of events. Pay particular attention to July, 1989. Prior to this date, Sister Lucia's cousin, Maria do Fetal, said that Sr. Lucia told her the consecration of Russia had not been fulfilled with the 6/7/81, 5/13/82, or 3/25/84 papal consecrations of the world. After this date, Maria reverses herself. Likewise before this date, Fatima expert Fr. Messias Coelho says that Sr. Lucia personally told him the consecration had not been done; after this date he too reverses himself.

Given that many in the Vatican, such as Secretary of State Card. Sodano, have long been eager to consign Our Lady of Fatima "to the past," I find it surprising that in all these years not one prelate has been able to produce a signed note by Sr. Lucia to back up his claims.

And if Sr. Lucia herself is upset with those who think the consecration undone (as some claim), she could easily get permission to pen a short note which could put the whole matter to rest.

8 posted on 09/15/2003 9:24:59 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
I will have to look it up, but there is a threadof an article about crucifiction by a medical examiner, and he mentions talking to Sr. Lucia at the end of the article.
9 posted on 09/15/2003 9:33:49 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Dajjal
If they want to consign it to the past, why not just consecrate and get it over with?

Can a conditional consecration be done, so that it is covered in either event, like they do with some baptisms?

10 posted on 09/15/2003 9:35:13 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
Can a conditional consecration be done, so that it is covered in either event, like they do with some baptisms?

You can repeat a consecration as many times as you like.

Two excellent missed opportunities were in 988 and 2001. In 988 JPII could have called all the bishops to join him in celebrating the millennium of Christianity in the land of 'Rus by consecrating 'Rus to the IHM (or even to both the SH and IHM, if he wanted to disguise it a little).

Likewise, when JPII visited Kiev and Lvov in 2001, he had an excellent excuse to use the opportunity to consecrate 'Rus to the IHM, and could have asked all the bishops to join him.

If they want to consign it to the past, why not just consecrate and get it over with?

A few of the reasons usually given as to why Russia cannot be named specifically:
*The ostpolitik policy between the Vatican and the Soviet Communists by which Russian Orthodox bishops attended V-2 as observers seems to still have some inertia going.
*Since the consecration must be done by the pope and all the bishops in union with him, those who failed to co-consecrate would stand out, and both sides don't want that to happen, fearing schism.
*Since the Vatican doesn't want to offend the Russian Orthodox Church, it doesn't want to give the impression that it wants the people of Russia to convert to Catholicism.

11 posted on 09/15/2003 11:13:24 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: nickcarraway
Corrigendum:

Two excellent missed opportunities were in 1988 and 2001.

12 posted on 09/15/2003 11:17:48 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal
You know someone is on the narrow path when they are hammered into an oblivion of insults and false accusations like this priest has been.

That's the measure of a righteous person anymore these days; you learn how to look for them.

He knows and lives the Holy Faith.
13 posted on 09/15/2003 11:21:20 PM PDT by pascendi
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To: Dajjal
Those actually are some interesting reasons. No one ever said be pope was easy. Given the situation we've seen with Catholics in the last six months, the situation is very dicey.
14 posted on 09/15/2003 11:22:30 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
I forgot to clarify that if Russia were consecrated by name to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in 1988 or 2001 (under the guise of the Land of 'Rus), there might still be debate between the factions as to whether Mary's request had been fulfilled in 1984 or 1988/2001, but that would be a minor exercise.
15 posted on 09/16/2003 12:18:04 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: nickcarraway; Dajjal
there is a threadof an article about crucifiction by a medical examiner, and he mentions talking to Sr. Lucia at the end of the article.
I said, 'Sister Lucy, I want to ask you one question directly: was Russia consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary or not, because there is all this controversy about that.' She said in these words: "It was done. The Holy Father did it. It was done and you can tell your friends it was done."
Spirit Daily article on FR

16 posted on 09/16/2003 4:33:50 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: Dajjal
sorry, but I was sent the "Fatima crusader" by a friend. It was full of complaints and hatred of the pope, so I wrote them to stop sending it to me...

The fatima message is about praying every day, (the rosary--which is the prayer of the poor and illiterate, originally devised for those who could not say the Office prayers of the psalms), meditating on the "mysteries" (i.e. things that occured during the life of Christ), and attending the duties of your daily life.

Gruner seemed more involved in criticing the pope for not properly "consecrating the world to the IMmacuoate heart of mary" than in instructing or encouraging us to pray, fast, and serve Jesus in our daily lives.
17 posted on 09/16/2003 4:52:24 AM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: Dajjal; american colleen
Secretary of State Card. Sodano, have long been eager to consign Our Lady of Fatima "to the past"...

Thank you for the information Dajjal.  This is a new, and curious story to me and your reply is appreciated.
I am unsure if this "facet of the story" is applicable -- Raymond Arroyo asked Cardinal Ratzinger about Fatima during his interview a couple weeks ago.  I was interested as to why Fatima came up.  Could the debate surrounding the consecration have been implied?  EWTN Interview with Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger  Thanks to american colleen who dug this up off the internet:
Fatima Secret: He views the revelation of the last secret of Fatima as referring to the attempted assassination of the Pope in the eighties because Marian apparitions tend to focus on the next generation after the revelation is received, but he does not rule out some other application in the more distant future.

18 posted on 09/16/2003 5:07:33 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: Dajjal
I think the Pope consecrated Russia all right. But in union with all the bishops of the world? Uh-uh.
19 posted on 09/16/2003 6:02:33 AM PDT by findingtruth
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To: pascendi; Dajjal
You know someone is on the narrow path when they are hammered into an oblivion of insults and false accusations like this priest has been.

That's the measure of a righteous person anymore these days; you learn how to look for them.

How many times per day do you utter with total sincerity Jansenist propositions concerning disobedience to ecclesiastical commands and penalties condemned by the Magisterium as "favoring heretics and heresies, and also schisms"?

From the Bull "Unigenitus":

91. The fear of an unjust excommunication should never hinder us from fulfilling our duty; never are we separated from the Church, even when by the wickedness of men we seem to be expelled from it, as long as we are attached to God, to Jesus Christ, and to the Church herself by charity.

92. To suffer in peace an excommunication and an unjust anathema rather than betray truth, is to imitate St. Paul; far be it from rebelling against authority or of destroying unity.

93 Jesus sometimes heals the wounds which the precipitous haste of the first pastors inflicted without His command. Jesus restored what they, with inconsidered zeal, cut off.

96. God permits that all powers be opposed to the preachers of truth, so that its victory cannot be attributed to anyone except to divine grace.

97. Too often it happens that those members, who are united to the Church more holily and more strictly, are looked down upon, and treated as if they were unworthy of being in the Church, or as if they were separated from Her; but, "the just man liveth by faith" [Rom. 1:17], and not by the opinion of men.

98. The state of persecution and of punishment which anyone endures as a disgraceful and impious heretic, is generally the final trial and is especially meritorious, inasmuch as it makes a man more conformable to Jesus Christ.

Declared and condemned as false, captious, evil-sounding, offensive to pious ears, scandalous, pernicious, rash, injurious to the Church and her practice, insulting not only to the Church but also the secular powers seditious, impious, blasphemous, suspected of heresy, and smacking of heresy itself, and, besides, favoring heretics and heresies, and also schisms, erroneous, close to heresy, many times condemned, and finally heretical, clearly renewing many heresies respectively and most especially those which are contained in the infamous propositions of Jansen, and indeed accepted in that sense in which these have been condemned.


20 posted on 09/16/2003 6:03:15 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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