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Arminianism -- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Modern Pelagianism
Response to: Calvinism- False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Geneva ^ | August 13, 2003 | OP

Posted on 08/13/2003 6:04:31 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

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To: Wrigley
You shoulda paid closer attention. I was better at it.
321 posted on 08/16/2003 7:49:00 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD)
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To: RnMomof7
Good, fair, honest post, Rn. I'm convinced that the days are growing shorter and that the necessity of proclaiming Christ is upon us. You can view that statement eschatologically, or you can view it as coming from a 51 year old he sees his own mortality in the frailty of his 76 year old father who surpasses him in age by only 25 years, and who remembers the man running marathons not too many years back.
322 posted on 08/16/2003 7:50:38 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: RnMomof7
I have always believed in the absolute foreknowledge of God and have never seen where Wesley or Arminius believed otherwise.
323 posted on 08/16/2003 7:52:47 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Jesus declared the error of the Sadduccees to be their rejection of the resurrection. I do not recollect a passage where he took them to task for free will-ism.
324 posted on 08/16/2003 7:58:18 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: P-Marlowe; CCWoody; OrthodoxPresbyterian; nobdysfool; Wrigley; RnMomof7; drstevej; Frumanchu; ...
"[God] knows all things possible, whether they be in the capability of God or of the creature. . . imagination or enunciation. . . all things that could have an existence "

To reiterate on what Woody rightly concluded. This is nothing more than the "Middle Knowledge" heresy. Here Arminius is re-defining God's "omniscience" to be that God knows all things "possible".

In "Middle Knowledge", God is said to be so smart that he "knows all potentialities". He doesn't know anything ~really~ until that event actually happens in time. However, he has known of it's potential reality and has contingencies in place in the event of any possible reality to ensure his "plan" will be accomplished.

In reality, God does not know much of anything if he doesn't ~really~ know what will indeed happen!

We can read further from the section you have quoted from:

XLIII. The schoolmen say besides, that one kind of God's knowledge is natural and necessary, another free, and a third kind middle. (1.) Natural or necessary knowledge is that by which God understands himself and all things possible. (2.) Free knowledge is that by which he knows, all other beings. (3.) Middle knowledge is that by which he knows that "if This thing happens, That will take place." The first precedes every free act of the Divine will; the second follows the free act of God's will; and the last precedes indeed the free act of the Divine will, but hypothetically from this act it sees that some particular thing will occur. But, in strictness of speech, every kind of God's knowledge is necessary. For the free understanding of God does not arise from this circumstance, that a free act of His will exhibits or offers an object to the understanding; but when any object whatsoever is laid down, the Divine understanding knows it necessarily on account of the infinity of its own essence. In like manner, any object whatsoever being laid down hypothetically, God understands necessarily what will arise from that object.
-from Arminius' Works, On the Understanding of God, XLIII

We also can read the following from the Wesley Center Online:

Further, Molina, Arminius, Plaifere, Goad, and Wesley also have in common the concept of "scientia media," or God's "middle knowledge," as an attempt to resolve the paradox of omniscience in order to maintain compatiblist view. It is this common denominator that I wish to explore this essay.

The Wesley Center Online goes on to say:

That Arminius advocated free-will is a well-documented fact of history. What is often overlooked is the fact that, like Molina, Arminius also an appeal to middle knowledge.

Furthermore, the Wesley Center Online says the following about John Wesley:

...the material indicates that Wesley did see the immediate value of the concept of middle knowledge to his Arminian position.

Well, Marlowe. It seems that True and Classic Arminianism indeed ~DOES~ deny the Omniscience of God!

Jean

325 posted on 08/16/2003 9:08:44 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: xzins
Ping to my Post #325

Arminius and Wesley most definately did ~NOT~ believe in the absolute foreknowledge of God.

You, to your credit, buck the historical Arminian position on God's sovereignty...presuming, of course, that you define "absolute foreknowledge" as God pre-knowing absolutely everything with certainty and not mere "possibility".

Jean

326 posted on 08/16/2003 9:13:09 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: Corin Stormhands
Amen to your post!

Looks like someone was just picking a fight!

327 posted on 08/16/2003 9:15:55 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Jean Chauvin
God does know everything.

Honestly, Jean, even after attending a Wesleyan seminary, I can think of nothing I ever read or had suggested to the effect that Wesley did not believe in absolute foreknowledge of God.
328 posted on 08/16/2003 9:18:31 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: xzins
Perhaps part of the problem is found in the tendency to redefine the traditional definition of theological words.

Those who adhere to "Middle Knowledge" believe they can rightly say that because God knows all "possibilities", that "God knows everything".

If that is the case, you could easily have been simply unaware of the meaning of those using the phrase "God knows everything".

I had a similar situation in College when taking an Astronomy class by Howard VanTill author of The Fourth Day. Although Prof. VanTill is a really nice guy, he's still a theistic evolutionist. Part of the problem he caused was his redefining the word "creation". He could wholeheartedly say that God "created" man. Now most non-evolutionary Christians would believe that meant that God created man distinctly from the Animals. That wasn't what Howard meant, however. He defined "created" as "providence". So, when man evolved from primates, Howard could easily say that God "created" man because God provided the evolutionary mechanism for man to evolve from lower forms of life.

Most in the class were ignorant of that fact and thus could find nothing wrong with what Prof. VanTill taught.

This is also true of "Middle Knowledge". By claiming that God "knows everything" they mean that God doesn't know everything ~really~ -but that he knows everything potentially.

This Middle Knowledge (as well as "Openness Theology") exists because these folks recognize that if God foreknows absolutely everything in reality, then everything he knows ~necessarily~ will occur and there is no freedom of the creature (man) to do "other".

Jean

329 posted on 08/16/2003 9:36:20 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin
Now that is a hypothesis I could run with, given the audacity that theologians show about the meanings of words....democrats have nothing on theologians, or Alice's Cheshire Cat.

I see no difference between middle knowledge and open theology.

I do see a difference between those who say that God can know BUT chooses not to know what choice you make.

The open theologians are pretty bold about saying that God CAN not know.
330 posted on 08/16/2003 9:41:36 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: xzins; CCWoody
I think the "Openness Theologians" actually do claim that God "could know" the future but choose not to. In that they are different than Middle Knowledge Theologians.

~IF~ God ~could~ know the future, but voluntarily chooses not to, implies that the future is indeed "knowable".

This, of course, begs the question that if the future is "knowable", then what have the "Openness Theologians" really "solved" by claiming that God "chooses" not to know the future.*

Jean

*This line of thinking did not originate with me. ;)

331 posted on 08/16/2003 9:46:37 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin
Boyd says that the choices are unknowable by God because they are free. He says that the contingencies, regardless of choice, are perfectly known by God. I'm in New Jersey at the moment and my copy of Boyd is at home, otherwise, I'd cite it.
332 posted on 08/16/2003 9:52:46 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: xzins
I'll have to check my info later. You could be correct as I could have cited from memory those ~describing~ "Openness Theology" as opposed to those ~professing~ "Openness Theology".

It's off to bed now.

Jean
333 posted on 08/16/2003 9:56:23 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin
Have a good night.
334 posted on 08/16/2003 9:57:56 PM PDT by xzins (In the Beginning was the Word)
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To: xzins
You as well.

Jean
335 posted on 08/16/2003 10:00:32 PM PDT by Jean Chauvin
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To: Corin Stormhands
I won't play your games any more and I'm studying elsewhere because I readily admit you can out debate me. So can Satan.

Amen!

336 posted on 08/16/2003 10:06:49 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Rather than simply admit that Arminianism is, in fact, HERETIKOS -- the false doctrine of "Human ability to choose", as defined by the Ancient Christian Church

First, it would not matter what any Church Father said about anything, only what the Scripture says.

Second, Predestination was not an issue of any major debate until Augustine of the 4th century.

337 posted on 08/16/2003 10:11:40 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
If you subscribed to DouglasKC's version of "Binitarianism", I'd call your beliefs a Heresy also, and urge you to Repent them. Nothing Personal -- just Truth and Charity.

Imagine my shock when scrolling through this thread and finding me mentioned.:-)

Of course the bible happens to agree that the father and son are the only "persons" that make up the Godhead in heaven...and further that the Holy Spirit is their power and glory working in the created universe.

And btw, I would urge that you give up your heretical, unbiblical viewpoint that is a perversion of the gospel and based primarily upon tradition. Nothing personal though, just truth and charity. :-)

338 posted on 08/16/2003 10:28:54 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Wrigley
Based on how many congregations? I grew up in the CRC. I heard a "salvation" sermon on a weekly basis. And I've been to many CRC churches in all parts of the country. ~ Wrigley Woody.
339 posted on 08/16/2003 10:36:14 PM PDT by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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To: CARepubGal
Are the heretics the main course or the entertainment? ~ Gal Woody.
340 posted on 08/16/2003 10:49:12 PM PDT by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)
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