Posted on 07/28/2003 1:24:07 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
It is on the Servetus thread.
If you think that it is an 'acceptable' comment then we each know where we stand.
That begs the question. Does that happen without the grace of God to bring him to belief?
Does man require the grace of God to repent and believe? How does that mesh with the believe that God foreknows who will select Him and that he sends grace to them?
At that point, a decision has to be made, accept or reject the light of truth given to him.
How can a man come that does not have faith
How does one get faith but by grace?
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil.(Jn.3:19)
So how does an evil man that does not understand nor seek God make a human decision to accept Christ without Gods grace?
Thus, one needs to repent of those evil deeds (Rom.3:23), recognize the need of a saviour and then believe Christ is that Saviour.
How does one repent that does not believe . How does one repent without the grace of God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Most men will not acknowledge that they are wicked or need a Saviour, counting on their own righteousness to please God or rejecting the idea of God altogether.
If it is Gods desire that all men without exception be saved why are they not? Why do some men never have the opportunity to be saved because they never heard the gospel?
Ed what you have described here is a Godless , graceless conversion..
Where does Gods grace come into play?
That begs the question. Does that happen without the grace of God to bring him to belief?
Does man require the grace of God to repent and believe? How does that mesh with the believe that God foreknows who will select Him and that he sends grace to them?
At that point, a decision has to be made, accept or reject the light of truth given to him.
How can a man come that does not have faith
How does one get faith but by grace?
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil.(Jn.3:19)
So how does an evil man that does not understand nor seek God make a human decision to accept Christ without Gods grace?
Thus, one needs to repent of those evil deeds (Rom.3:23), recognize the need of a saviour and then believe Christ is that Saviour.
How does one repent that does not believe . How does one repent without the grace of God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Most men will not acknowledge that they are wicked or need a Saviour, counting on their own righteousness to please God or rejecting the idea of God altogether.
If it is Gods desire that all men without exception be saved why are they not? Why do some men never have the opportunity to be saved because they never heard the gospel?
Ed what you have described here is a Godless , graceless conversion..
Where does Gods grace come into play?
God can choose others unconditionally for specific tasks as He did for Israel and Christ.
The difference is that choice is for the happiness of mankind, not its destruction!
Arminians do not reject all unconditional election, only unconditional election to salvation since this violates God's character that He seeks the happiness of mankind, and 'finds no pleasure in the death of the wicked'.
Thus, in the case when God in his sovereign choice makes an unconditional election, it is not in contradiction with His own essence, as is the case with unconditional election to salvation.
God is not a respector of persons nor arbitrary, thus, God cannot choose people and damn others simply based on His own sovereign Decree. Could I have some scripture on that ?
Try Acts.10 and Rom.2, God is not a respector of persons.
Try Jn.3:16.
Try 1Tim.2:4 and 2Pet.3:9
But what do you care about what Scripture says about anything if it contradicts what you want to believe.
You may want to consider the pagan nations that God ordered slaughtered to achieve His purposes
See only a Calvinist would attempt to prove that God is in fact unjust or abitrary
Now, did God give those nations time to repent?
Did God get pleasure in destroying them?
God destroyed those nations in order to protect other nations.
The reasoning is clear, unlike unconditional election to salvation.
So, 'mom' either God is a respector of persons or arbitrary which is it?
That is the only two choices any advocate of unconditional election to salvation has, that is why they start mumbling and trying to double talk their way of what their system really teaches!
Could you explain then Why then do some live where the gospel is given and some not? It is God that chose the time and place of your birth. How is it God was so "arbitrary " to have some born in the congo to pagan parents and some born in the USA to Christian parents , where they would hear the gospel?
And those in the Congo do not get the same chance at unconditional election as the American?
Don't tell me God chose more Americans then He did others?
The individual in the Congo has as much chance to be saved as any other person if he is responsive to the truth God gives him (Psa.19, Rom.1).
God is fair and wants that individual saved and will give him more truth as he responds to the truth given to him.
That is why we send out missions in the first place, to reach those who God knows want the Gospel, not tell them something they have no need of hearing since they are already 'elected' anyway!
That proves that "conditional election "is impossible as every man does not have the same opportunity to be saved.
You know the longer you stay a Calvinist the more obtuse you become.
You make a simplistic statement and then think you have actually proven something.
Since you refuse to see how the Arminians handle this 'complex' Calvinistic assault on their theological positon, it is rather fruitless to continue discussing it with you.
Your argument is, I can't explain why I was saved, but since millions of people are going to hell, it must be that God wants them to since not all people get the same chance I did'
No, because God gives all men and sufficent chance at salvation, that is, all men can be saved if they respond to the truth given to them, first by nature and then Gospel hearing.
Oh, no I had a fear of God which God wants all men to have (Pr.1:7) and thus obeyed the command to obey (Jn.6) Oh you have a wonderful character Ed , you can boast about how fearless you are and how obedient you are. It is a good thing that you could figure out how to save your self
Well, since a servant cannot boast (Lk.17) I will leave the boasting to the Calvinists who cannot explain why God chose them but (in their most humble demeanor) will say how unworthy they are but really (God must had a good reason for choosing them after all)
Your humility is as phoney as the rest of your rotten god-dishonoring theological system.
What about those that lack the character ?
What character?
Fearing God is common sense not character!
It is the sense that God gives to all men.
To reject it is insanity, which is what going against God is!
Only a Calvinist would make something so simple and basic, complex and distorted.
Fear of God is common to man that is why religion is so common.
That is what Paul was addressing on Mars hill, even the Athenians had erected a statue to an 'unknown' god, but then rejected the revelation of who that God was, at least most did, some did accept the revelation.
Cornilus (an unsaved man-Acts.11) feared God!
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and it is acceptance of the truth that God has revealed about Himself.
It is given in grace and all men can respond or reject that truth.
Instead, you would rather ignore the contradictions in your warped theology that makes God either a respector of persons or arbitrary, both impossible, thus, your unconditional election is impossible!
Here is a Calvinist attempting not to understand the truth!
What does the Arminian say on this?
He says that God gives the grace and man can refuse it or accept it?
It that too complex to grasp?
And stop using logical terms that are not relevent (all members of the Cabal think they are great 'logical' thinkers)
There is not 'question begging' going on.
The light is given, from nature through the actual word of God and at each step that light can be rejected and the light will cease be given.
See the article I posted on 'drawing'
At that point, a decision has to be made, accept or reject the light of truth given to him. How can a man come that does not have faith How does one get faith but by grace?
Well, let us say for sake of argument that 'faith' is given along the way (as Wesley believed), why can't that same faith be rejected as well?
Do you always believe everything God tells you?
If you did you would never sin now would you?
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil.(Jn.3:19) So how does an evil man that does not understand nor seek God make a human decision to accept Christ without Gods grace?
Did I say that he did?
The issue is can that man reject God's grace-duh!
But you know the issue and want to appear 'clever' for your 'clever' friends.
Since Arminianism teaches grace from start to finish why don't you actually start reading what they say and then deal with their words and not the 'brillant' reasoning of those who you talk to like 'Doc'
No, that would take some work on your part and you would rather pretend (along with the rest of the Cabal) that you actually know what you are talking about-you don't!
None of you can cite anything that Wesley or Arminius actually taught.
You just repeat the same tired old Calvinistic arguments that you have memorized from your brain washers.
Thus, one needs to repent of those evil deeds (Rom.3:23), recognize the need of a saviour and then believe Christ is that Saviour. How does one repent that does not believe . How does one repent without the grace of God?
One doesn't, but grace is not irresistable now is it?
Or else you and I would never sin now would we.
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Most men will not acknowledge that they are wicked or need a Saviour, counting on their own righteousness to please God or rejecting the idea of God altogether. If it is Gods desire that all men without exception be saved why are they not? Why do some men never have the opportunity to be saved because they never heard the gospel?
See, that is why you are dishonest!
I have posted an article on drawing which explains that all men are drawn, first by natural revelation and then if they are positive to that grace then they hear the Gospel.
You just drone on, ignoring what has been posted, repeating what your Calvinistic brain washers have fed into your empty head!
Ed what you have described here is a Godless , graceless conversion..
What I have described is how God saves with grace.
All you have repeated is empty Calvinistic double-talk.
Do not even bother me with such nonsense again.
You make no attempt to understand what the Arminians actually teach.
Where does Gods grace come into play?
The day one is born!
Read Psa.19 and Rom.1 for a start.
Like I said, do not bother me with your inane posts.
If a Calvinist on these threads would actually address what the Arminians say and not what they want them to say then we might have an intelligent discussion.
Arminianism is as much a grace system as the Calvinists purport to be.
The only difference is that the Arminians believe grace can be rejected because man is not a pre-programmed robot!
Judas was chosen by God to do exactly what God ordained him to do, and exactly what Judas chose to do.
He was no different in that regard than you or me. We do exactly as we choose, exactly as God wills.
Ed, do you think Jesus was just unlucky that he chose poorly by selecting Judas as one of the 12?
Do you think Christ regretted choosing Judas?
"Darn," grumbled our Lord and Savior. "If only I hadn't chosen that doofus Judas, I could have skipped all that needless Cross stuff and maybe opened up a little kitchen cabinetry shop. Ah...life is filled with regrets."
Did Judas bring forth the fruit that God ordained him to bear? Or did Christ regret choosing Judas?
It's one or the other.
Yep, that's the fallacy in a nutshell.
Pretty weak grace; mighty strong man. Stronger than God.
The Arminian anthem: "Not-So-Amazing Grace."
why would grace be any less amazing if it could be rejected?
Might you show me somewhere in the song that it says that?
Did Jesus choose Judas or not?
Jesus answered them Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil (Jn.6:70)
Now that means being chosen does not mean one is saved, now does it?
He was no different in that regard than you or me. We do exactly as we choose, exactly as God wills.
We do exactly as we choose, exactly as God wills
Note the clever double talk.
Where did our 'choice' come in when Adam sinned? Was it God who wanted it?
You make God the one responsible for both good and evil in the world and you do so by not connecting the dots and playing word games in your own mind.
Now, is that will as God wanted it or only as He permitted it?
We say that there are something that happen as God wants it to happen, but others that God permits to happen, like sin.
Is everything happening as God wants it?
See how I have to pin you guys down with your terms.
Classical Arminians believe that God is in total control of history so both sides believe that everything is happening as God 'wills'it but is everything happening as God wants it to happen?
If so, then God is the one that wanted sin to enter the Universe, so He could condemn mankind and save some, send the rest to the Lake of Fire and this for His glory?
Ed, do you think Jesus was just unlucky that he chose poorly by selecting Judas as one of the 12?
No, I think He knew exactly who He was choosing
The point is that the choosing of the Apostles had nothing to do with their salvation, it had to do with the spiritual gift and that was the aspect that was unconditonal.
Do you think you were just lucky because God chose you and not someone else.
Now we know that God cannot act in a abitrary manner and we know that He is no respector of persons.
Those are the only two reasons that anyone could be unconditionally elected to salvation.
Hence, Unconditional election is impossible
It goes against the very being of God.
Do you think Christ regretted choosing Judas?
No, I think Christ regretted Judas not choosing Him.
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted his heel against me. (Psa.41:9 cf Jn.13:18)
"Darn," grumbled our Lord and Savior. "If only I hadn't chosen that doofus Judas, I could have skipped all that needless Cross stuff and maybe opened up a little kitchen cabinetry shop. Ah...life is filled with regrets." Did Judas bring forth the fruit that God ordained him to bear? Or did Christ regret choosing Judas?
Judas made a choice to reject Christ, a choice that was always foreknown he would freely make.
God did not want him to betray Christ but since Judas did, that free will decision was honored as such as were all the decisions involved in the Cross.
The pont is when you talk about 'choice' of the Apostles, it has nothing to do with salvation, since Judas was also chosen and he was not saved.
It's one or the other.
No, it is neither.
Calvinist think in a air-tight box of their own making setting up false alternatives.
The issue with Judas is that Judas did not have to do anything that was forordained, because it was foreordained.
It was foreordained because God knew He would do it!
Judas did as God willed He would do, but it was a permissive will not a directive will since God cannot be responsible for sin.
Does not God lead us not into temptation, yet we are tempted? Does not God will that we not commit any sin after we have been made a new cration, yet we still commit sin? Isn't God trying to keep us from sinning, yet even as a new creation we resist his will? Or does he really (secretly) want us to sin (even though he has commanded us not to)?
Didn't Abraham have to "exercise" his faith in order for it to be counted unto him for righteousness? Was that a "work"?
Where in the Bible does it say that there is a distinction?
Are you saying that we can resist the grace unto sactification, but that we can't resist the grace unto salvation? That seems to make no sense at all.
So we can resist God in one area but we can't resist God in another? Seems to contradict the Calvinistic notion of "Sovereignty", doesn't it?
Is saving faith a gift?
Is there a "non-saving" faith?
If so, is that a gift? Or is it a curse?
My answer (of yes) was implied. Sorry. YES saving faith is a gift. You knew that didn't you? More games?
Now if you could answer my question.
No one I know of holds the third choice. Are you an exception.
I think #[3] makes perfect sense. Since our sins were bought at the cross, faith is exercised first, then the effect of the cross --forgiveness of sins -- is accounted unto us with justification and then [3] we are filled with the Holy Spirit and reborn and regenerated.
So does choosing door number 3 make me a heretic?
If Abraham's justification was also based on faith, then what about the Gospel was "new?" Sincere question: I'm not being argumentative.
It would also hold true for others in the Old Testament, I would think because "without faith it is impossible to please God."
But, if that's true, then what was "NEW" about the gospel era. (I will show you a "new" thing.)
Also check your freepmail.
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