Converted to the Past: The appeal of Orthodoxy

Books & Culture ^ | September/October, 1997 | Phillip Johnson

[MarMema]

Forgot to include a quote I like very much from Howard Finster, to add to the discussion on icons.

""preaching don't do much good; no one listens- but a picture gets on a brain cell."

[MarMema]

Duh, two of the quotes of his I was looking for were on the very link I posted. But since I had searched for that link specifically to find the God is Love writing, I did not read it completely.

"I built this park of broken pieces to try to mend a broken world,"

"Dying daily is a greator sacrifice than dying dead."

[George W. Bush]

In another chapter, this from memory...again...I recall Mama Fred's description of an Orthodox priest invited to a very down-home spiritual revival and being called to the microphone and not knowing what to say. So he prayed the Trisagion, allowed by us, and I was laughing so hard in reading that chapter. The priest at the microphone saying "Holy God" and all the pentecostals in the audience crying out in response "Holy, Holy, yes Holy!"

I would guess the Orthodox priest will never forget this episode!

Your tale reminds me of a book (Bible In Pocket, Gun In Hand) on frontier preachers who toiled in the great heathen American frontier. It was full of stories like that one.

I recall a favorite. A yound Methodist circuit-riding minister, on one of his first journeys, came to town where a leading Baptist had died. The local Baptists, despite their denominational rivalry with the Methodists, wanted him to preach a funeral sermon for the dead Baptist as they had no regular preacher and they did not know when a clergyman might again come to town. The young Methodist, concerned with the propriety of ecumenical funeral sermons, wired his superior to ask whether he should perform the funeral. The Methodist superior wired back: "Bury all the Baptists you can! Stop.".

Charming. [This story has also become an urban legend with Lutheran, Episcopalian and other denominational variants. But the dead guy is always a Baptist. Every Christian faction seems to enjoy the burying of Baptists.)

[MarMema]

Mama Fred on Finster

[MarMema]

"Bury all the Baptists you can! Stop

Funny! I suppose you have some competition among you as Protestants which made this a favorite and eventually a classic. In the area south of Seattle where I live there are a lot of Baptists and Lutherans, but before that it is heavily 7th Day Adventist. Which does give me lots of excellent shopping places for Lenten foods...

[narses]

Paging the Catholic Caucus for their perspective.

[MarMema]

one might come away thinking that the Orthodox are just a rather colorful Protestant church.

What? You don't think this is true? :-)

[CCWoody]

Interesting that this thread is so quiet. I thought it an interesting article... Oh, well -- perhaps wiser heads than mine are availing themselves of a nice afternoon nap... ~ OP

Well, for me, I'm topping off a week long "vacation" with a weekend of relaxing, though not that nice afternoon nap. Still, about the only thing that really made sense to me was that whole bit about the Anglican church, what with me being born and raised from generations of Anglicans all the way back to the motherland herself.

As for my own personal experience, I left the Episcopal church after I actually met the Lord and figured out that the crap I was being fed was just exactly that (sorry GWB, I couldn't find any nicer word to describe my disgust at what passed for doctrine).

The interesting thing here is that my uttter disguist for the Open Theism being taught led me to embrace with all that I had God's absolute Omnisicence. It was this foundational belief, along with firmly grasping that God's will really is done which led me to believe what I would later learn was called 5-point Calvinism.

So, would I trade my 16 years as an Anglican? Absolutely not. I might not have ever embraced the fundamentals and I might be an Arminian today (spits for effect)!

Woody.

[MarMema]

ping

[CCWoody]

Our theology of icons is about the representation in the flesh of God here on earth, or Christ. And we are all "icons of God", made in His image. ~ MarMema

Well, even granting that we are all "icons of God", which gave me a mental image of bowing down and worshipping before my wife as if this would somehow be pleasing to the Father, the Command against making any image is given to us, not to God. He is perfectly free to make any image and likeness of Himself He wishes. Of this, I am grateful.

Woody.

[MarMema]

In the Orthodox church bowing is a physical expression to indicate honor to another and especially humility. I think this is true also, in a secular way, for the Japanese, who bow to each other regularly and are not intending it to be considered worship of each other.

But your point is well-taken and helps me to see it from another perspective.

[MarMema]

Well for anyone interested in more of Mama Fred's writing here is her page.

Mama Fred

[don-o]

claiming one's Church to be 2000 years old amounts (in the Orthodox Protestant Mind) to hanging a Neon Sign over one's sanctuary announcing, "We're NOT the True Church!" The Church has existed from the beginning of the world and will last until the end, as appears from the fact that Christ is eternal King who cannot be without subjects.

Wow.

I am boggled over the implicit denigration on the Incarnation.

Orthodox Christianity, teaches us that God was incarnate for two reasons:

1. To defeat death.
2. To found the Church.

For #1, He died and descended to Hades and released the captives that death held - broke those gates.

For #2, off St Peter's confession, He founded the Church, and at the Last Supper, after John 6: 54ff. especially 67, when many quit on Him, he confirmed what was up.. "This is My Body...This is My blood...

I wrestled with this for years, until I decided that Holy Scripture actually was meaning what the words said.

What say ye?

[George W. Bush]

one might come away thinking that the Orthodox are just a rather colorful Protestant church.

What? You don't think this is true? :-)

Not at all. Through my reading here at FR, I have learned that we Prot types are merely 'separated brethren' but you guys are a bunch of 'disobedient Catholics'.

You know, it is funny that inasmuch as your churches share a common communion and many other traditions with Rome, they choose a more disrespectful label for you than for us. But then, they know the danger of provoking us, even in modern times. You should ask OPie to relate why Romam prelates have no fear of Arminian Protestants armed with shotguns but quiver in their shoes before a lone Calvinist with a slingshot. Heh-heh.

[don-o]

In truth, no Protestant can ever have the kind of attachment for an icon or statue or other artistic work or reliquary as does the Roman church, and to a far lesser extent, the Orthodox.

Give this a think.

A soldier in Iraq tonight, takes out his picture of his family and kisses the picture. Is he loving that photographic paper and the frame it is in?

Of course not.

He is using the picture to turn his mind to his loved ones back home.

Icons are exactly the same for us.

[George W. Bush]

In the Orthodox church bowing is a physical expression to indicate honor to another and especially humility.

I think the Orthodox churches in America have in the past been perceived as very ethnic culturally. I think that Orthodox Church in America is trying to find a way to be more American but without losing their Orthodox spiritual heritage and practice. I have read before of people who visited some Orthodox churches years ago and they liked the parts they could understand well enough. But I perceived they felt there was something of a cultural or ethnic barrier. What is interesting is that one reads far less of that sort of impression in recent years, a sign that the Orthodox are trying to reach out more to a broader community. Inasmuch as their outreach can rescue many from the clutches of Rome or apostasizing Episcopalians and such, I think this is a very good thing. One also notices that, while Rome gets a lot of deservedly bad press, the Orthodox are faring much better in the press.

I think Rome is seeing in the Orthodox here in America something of a threat, a genuine rival. And America is the key source of Rome's funding. Not a dire threat just yet but in a decade or so...

[George W. Bush]

I grasp your point but I think you may be understating the case a bit. The reverence the Orthodox hold for icons is considerably more than they have for family photos that they carry in their wallets.

[MarMema]

I have learned that we Prot types are merely 'separated brethren' but you guys are a bunch of 'disobedient Catholics'.

LOL!!! What a great observation. You probably thought the Protestants were the ones reacting to the excesses in Rome, but it turns out you still get to bid for positions at the vatican. While we get lined up for the scourges of punishment for refusing to submit to the pope, you get to consider a future as a pope.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The method was collegial, not authoritarian; disputes were settled in church councils, whose decisions were not valid unless "received" by the whole community.

This is a baloney doctrine currently circulating in the Orthodox Church. By it the Councils are emptied of all authority, unless the "whole community" spoken of, is circularly defined as those Christians who accept the Council.

The Council of Chalcedon was widely rejected throughout eastern Christendom, especially in Egypt, Syria, Armenia, and Ethiopia. Likewise, the Councils of Ephesus and Constantinople II were not "received" by the Church in Seleucid Persia and Arabia and Edessa.

Based on the standard enunciated above, the councils were invalid.

On the other hand, the Anathemas of the Fathers at those councils bespoke of their belief that THEY had determined the faith, and that the Church could either conform to the definitions, or be excommunicated anathema maranatha. "Anathema to those who think otherwise" is the common cry of the Fathers upon being read the true doctrine in a letter from the Pope or one of the Patriarchs (i.e. the reaction to St. Cyril of Alexandria, Pope St. Leo, Pope St. Agatho, etc.). This is called the doctrine of the Conciliar Infallibility "ex sese" - "of itself", and NOT by consent of the Church.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

As to the claim of being 2000 years old, I believe the Orthodox church makes this claim to show historical continuity

There is certainly a direct line of Bishops from St. Paul's chosen in Thessaloniki and Crete and elsewhere to the present Greek Orthodox incumbent. Certain particular Churches both Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox are essentially 2000 years old. These are the oldest continuingly functional institutions in the world today. They are also the last remnants of Rome.

So I would say that we feel we have the truth and at the same time we recognize that others within the church of Christ also possess the truth.

You are getting closer to me than you think when you say that.