The Meaning of 'foreknew' in Romans 8:29

The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented | 1963 | David N. Steele/Curtis C. Thomas

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Maybe He's the (skit) ~shrug~ "I dunno."

Only to Arminians.

Who will be saved?

God: "I dunno."

When are they saved?

God: "I dunno."

Does man's free will permit him to alter God's plan?

God: "I dunno."

[xzins]

I know you.

I know you believe in God's total, absolute knowledge. I don't know Townsend or what he believes.

Knowledge is the issue for me, lately.

Absolute knowledge + God inhabiting eternity = a combination I've never thought my way through before.

Might as well be now.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Absolute knowledge + God inhabiting eternity...

You seem to be struggling mightily to find an intellectual way around God's sovereignty.

But when you reply to Marlowe's goofy syllogisms with "God can make decisions! Awesome thought," I have to think you're grasping at limerickal straws.

If God were going to change His mind and make a decision contrary to what He determined at the beginning of creation, He would have already known He was going to make that decision and incorporated it into His construction of what we call "time."

Your exchanges with Marlowe sound like the kid who's trying to trip up God by postulating a rock too heavy for God to lift. They're just words. Mind-candy puzzles that ignore the reality that God is in control of everything.

The struggle you're working your "way through" in hard-wired into man's brain. I have faith one day you'll relax into the truth.

[xzins]

It's ok for that to be your take on it.

For me it's a matter of honesty.

Moses didn't get to go into the promised land because of his sin at Meribah. I can either believe that that sin was pre-programmed or I can believe it was spontaneous.

If spontaneous, then Moses had been on a path to enter the promised land. If pre-programmed, then Moses had never been on a path to enter the promised land.

The sense of the bible story is that it was something that "came up" as a result of Moses' bad decision. The sense is that it was a thing that was happening/working out at that time.

But, God knows everything, doesn't He?

The only way it can be a new thing is if the idea of time is somehow also involved.

[Jean Chauvin]

x,

Your (Marlowe's) concept of God's relationship with "Time" is pure Philosphical Speculation with the emphasis on Speculation.

That was what Dr. E was trying to point out. You are still attempting to define God so he will (still) comfortably fit into a "Free-Will" Philosphical Paradigm because you have realized the alternative will be to admit the truths of Calvinism.

The Bible is not Science Fiction -you're better off leaving that to Spielberg and "Back to the Future".

Jean

[xzins]

Hi, Jean.

I appreciate the short post.

On the contrary, I believe I'm being honest.

(Aside: why all the different fonts on FR today? Has something changed? Or is it just me?)

[Frumanchu]

Moses didn't get to go into the promised land because of his sin at Meribah. I can either believe that that sin was pre-programmed or I can believe it was spontaneous.

Whoa there, z. Pre-programmed? Fore-ordained perhaps, but not pre-programmed. There is no doubt that the sin at Meribah was Moses' own doing. He was not 'programmed' to do it. However, it was foreknown by God, and in allowing it to happen it was thus fore-ordained. It was well within the power of God to take measures to prevent the sin at Meribah from happening, but it was allowed to happen for a reason. From God's perspective, it was neither spontaneous (in the sense that it caught God unawares) nor was it pre-programmed (in the sense that God authored the sin).

The only way it can be a new thing is if the idea of time is somehow also involved.

The plan is laid out. Time is unfolding as God has ordained it to from before creation. For God to change it 'on the fly' would be to have God deciding that His original decree was less than perfect, and thus that His will was less than perfect. We simply have to accept that our position and perspective, travelling at a fixed rate through space and time, makes contemplation of such matters difficult.

[Frumanchu]

Aside: why all the different fonts on FR today? Has something changed? Or is it just me?

Not just you, I noticed it too. And I like it...easier to read, less eye strain.

[Jean Chauvin]

I do think you are being honest. However, that does not mean that you are correct.

Marlowe's thesis on Eternity is speculative -unless you care to establish it as a Biblical Priniciple.

I believe that you are embracing it as a last resort to keep your "Free-Will" Philosophical paradigm intact.

Jean

(I've noticed the fonts as well)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

For me it's a matter of honesty.

The implication being that Calvinists are either dishonest or deluded?

You'd find more intellect by reading Calvin than by high-fiving Arminian sophistry.

The only way it can be a new thing...

It's a new thing to you and me and Moses. It's not a new thing to God. It was, is and always will be His will that determines everything.

Did God "force" Moses to sin? No.

Was Moses responsible for his sin? Yes.

Was it God's will that Moses sin? Yes.

Could Moses have done anything other than God's will?

NO.

[Jean Chauvin]

xzins,

Ask yourself this question:

If you were a creature that was not bound by time and you knew all there ever was and all that ever will be, how would you communicate to some of these ideas to a creature that is bound by time?

I suppose that you would use all kinds of language which makes sense to the creature bound by time such as "changing your mind" (If you knew you would eventually change your mind and what your "change of mind" explicitly would be, did you REALLY change your mind? Or did you simply communicate that idea to a creature bound by time such that it could somewhat comprehend your reality?)

Jean

[xzins]

There are those of your camp who disagree, Fru.

Some have told me that these very lines I'm now writing were pre-planned and part of the decree. And NOT based on foreknowledge, but on DECREE.

I can live with that if it's true.

But, I don't know that yet.

[xzins]

Well, I don't know if "last resort to keep" is a fair evaluation of what I'm up to. In my opinion, I'm exploring another avenue that must be checked off the list rather than bypassed.

Is it speculative? Yep.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

Jean, I've accepted foreordination based on absolute foreknowledge. I'm not afraid of decreed foreordination. There's really no significant difference.

[xzins]

For me it's a matter of honesty. The implication being that Calvinists are either dishonest or deluded?

That would be drawing a conclusion that I did not intend.

I was talking about my personal integrity.

You're allowed to be light-hearted in your next post. :>)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You're allowed to be light-hearted in your next post.

LOL.

My heart is ever light, and I never hold back where you're concerned. 8~)

[xzins]

Believe it or not, DrE....


I appreciate the concern.


But you should know by now... it is my nature -- I am compelled, driven -- to search things out.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time." -- T.S. Eliot

[RnMomof7]

Excellent post Dr E

[P-Marlowe]

Marlowe's thesis on Eternity is speculative -unless you care to establish it as a Biblical Priniciple.

I think that there is substantial biblical evidence to back up my thesis. First of all, do you doubt that God exists outside the parameters of time itself?

Is God limited by time? If God is indeed omnipresent, does he not exist in the past, present and future simultaneously? Or is he only present Now?

You Calvinists can take a verse like "Jesus Wept" and build an entire theological system around it. But is it not just as important to try to understand a statement from God like "before Abraham was, I AM"? Does that not make a strong implication that God not only existed (past tense) before Abraham, but that he "exists" (present tense) before Abraham now?

And if that is true, what are the divine implications?