Texas Pastor Removed Over Latin Masses

Seattle Catholic ^ | July 4, 2003 | Peter Miller

[Desdemona]

We also did this thing with "passing a basket" for the collection instead of using the regular baskets with handles and afterwards, the collection monies were placed at the foot of the altar instead of being kept "somewhere" during the Mass as had always been done.

I've seen this done a lot, but I'm not wild about it. My parents' parish has always carried the money up with the gifts at offertory.

As for kneeling, I thought the bishops in the US have made it the norm. It is in my archdiocese and believe me, my bishop does things by the book. The 2000 Roman Missal replaces whatever postures became fashionable under Paul VI and as far as I know it says to kneel.

[Desdemona]

I notice that it specifically says "in the Dioceses of the United States." Is the norm in other parts of the world to remain standing?

At least for the consecration, not in Europe. And the kneelers are bare wood.

[ninenot]

The priest does not have the authority to prevent you from kneeling unless it's obvious that kneeling presents a serious difficulty for you OR others around you.

You may ignore him and continue to kneel--or find another parish for the next few months.

The American Bishops have decided to maintain the "kneel" posture which was traditional here--and this has been re-affirmed in the latest GIRM. See the adoremus.org website for more details.

[ninenot]

Yup.

[k omalley]

I think that the priest's remark that we should pull away from Rome would be enough justification to look for a new parish. If we pull away from Rome, what do we have? A protestant church would be the result. It might have the name "Catholic" but that would be false advertising.

[ninenot]

You probably know the accurate answer, but if Phoenix is a part of the Los Angeles metropolitan (Mahony's territory), it's likely that EWTN is officially banned in chanceries and rectories.

Mother Angelica lit out after Mahony about 5 years ago and stung him badly. Mahony tried to get her off the air, but failed--her operation is not dependent on the Church for finances.

So Mahony sued her under Canon Law. The case reached Rome, but somehow got buried under a very DEEP pile at the Rota. A decision may be made in the year 3025. Rome can do those things, you know...

HOWEVER, Mahony did manage to 'persuade' Angelica's Bishop to force her to change the way in which Mass is offered at her convent. Los Angeles spreads a lot of money around (or at least used to, before settlements.)

[ninenot]

Time for a reformation.

Got Theses??

[ninenot]

notice that it specifically says "in the Dioceses of the United States." Is the norm in other parts of the world to remain standing?

At least for the consecration, not in Europe. And the kneelers are bare wood

As Des and some other folks who have toured Europe mention, the "stand only" crowd at the litwonk conventions take time out from dopesmoking to lie about European 'customs.'

You will find that there's plenty of kneeling going on over there, and that the representations made by the litwonk poofters are generally as reliable as those of Jayson Blair.

[american colleen]

Los Angeles spreads a lot of money around (or at least used to, before settlements.)

Wouldn't it be great if the lawsuits broke the back of the financial hold some bishops have? One good thing to come out of the abuse suits.

[american colleen]

I read the "GIRM" last night and found that the collection gifts are not to be placed anywhere near the altar where Mass is said. The "GIRM" didn't elaborate on why, but maybe they think the practice is tacky like we do!

[american colleen]

Thanks for the big belly laughs!

On a serious note, I'd like to put my order in for the "Pope Piel Pocket Prie-Dieu" in royal blue, please.

[drstevej]

Royal blue is an excellent choice, it will display the gold papal signature well.

I'm thinking about the following marketing slogan...

"Take a Stand... KNEEL."

[american colleen]

Thanks, sara.

I think for the next two Sundays we'll be going elsewhere... possibly to "The Mission Church" also known as "the Basilica of Our Lady of Perpetual Help" in Roxbury/Boston. It is staffed by the Redemptorists and the interior is breathtaking. I think the Redemtorists are orthodox and lean toward traditional Catholicism. I took my daughter to visit it on Saturday while we were in the area and even she as a 14 year old was bowled over. In fact, she suggested that we go there next week as it bothered her about the "no kneeling" in our home parish.

Thank you for the reminder that Jesus prayed on his knees - can/should we do less?

I have no problem with the priest telling people that they don't have to kneel when there is no kneelers - lots of older people have knee problems. But I don't have knee problems and neither do my kids. It strikes me that any little "sacrifice" like no a/c on a hot day or the Gospel readings that are long, etc., etc., are treated (in my parish) like a huge thing that is too hard and therefore, the priests will say a shorter homily or take the shorter Gospel passage in the interest of our comfort, while letting us know that they are doing it. It's kind of like taking that extra 5 minutes at Communion time... regardless of the amount of parishioners (I've seen it as low as 30 or so) we still have those two Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers (no "extraordinary" included, of course!).

[drstevej]

Be sure to send your priest a postcard from The Mission Church.

[Snuffington]

A thought about this article occurs. I'm not going to attempt to be comprehensive. As I write this there are apparently 352 comments posted about it so far. I'll assume they already cover the basics. But....

Where is the widespread condemnation of this bishop's obvious disobedience to the pope regarding a wide and generous use of the old Mass? The priest in question seemingly made a conscious attempt to offer this Mass in complete submission to his bishop's authority. It was only when he was met with a stone wall that he eventually took matters into his own hands.

The priest's disobedience is obviously unfortunate. But it is also an obviously lesser matter than the disobedience of the bishop. And it is also very likely the sort of disobedience the pope anticipated, and was trying to avoid by issuing his "wide and generous" statement in Ecclessia Dei.

Bishops consciously ignoring the pope who then expect total submission from their priests are fooling themselves. They undermine their own authority and then wonder why they're not respected like they used to be.

[american colleen]

"Take a Stand... KNEEL."

Dang! I wish you were a Catholic pastor (even if you are married).

[ninenot]

There's only one test you need apply for 'orthodoxy:' in 90+% of the cases, if the priest reads EXACTLY what is in the Missal, no edits, no comments, no editorials, it's likely that he is orthodox.

ANY deviations--and you are in for a wild ride.

[saradippity]

Phoenix is a diocese in the archdiocese of Santa Fe.Kind of interesting that Archbishop Sheehan was sent over here to hold the fort until they can get a new bishop in place and most people,religious,catholic laity and media act surprised.

I had always believed (but could have been in error)that acting in stead of a bishop of the archdiocese was part of the job description of an abp. So I was not at all surprised that he was sent over,the surprise to me was that everybody else was.

One of the primary reasons that I am cautiously optimistic about the archbishop is that our old resigned bishop never had him over as a guest speaker for any "EVENTS". We have never had an orthodox member of the Catholic hierarchy in America out here. I have been treated to Weakland,Mahoney,Ziemann,etc,.The fact that the archbishop has not been an invited guest makes me believe that he was/is Catholic.That just sounds so wonderful.

[saradippity]

I have always believed the post-scandal Church in this country would be;poorer and purer,smaller and stronger. I just hope sooner rather than later.

[saradippity]

You have the greatest ideas,I would like royal blue,powder pink,persimmon,pale yellow and evergreen,so I can co-ordinate my outfits with my kneelers. You might also consider mantillas to match for women and ties the men.

You may be able to seed a whole economy in one of the developing countries.