Texas Pastor Removed Over Latin Masses

Seattle Catholic ^ | July 4, 2003 | Peter Miller

[ultima ratio]

No, the act need not be "intrinsically evil" to be resisted and disobeyed. You are raising the bar unnecessarily--which is telling to say the least. Interesting how the same people who proclaim the rights of conscience and of dissent are the first ones yammering about obedience when it's their own ox being gored.

[sitetest]

Dear ultima,

LOL. My ox isn't getting gored. But if it does, could we at least try to get a couple of steaks out of it for the grill??

"Interesting how the same people who proclaim the rights of conscience and of dissent are the first ones yammering about obedience when it's their own ox being gored."

Nope, that's not MY ox for sure, as I've never proclaimed that any Catholic has a right to dissent from binding church teaching.


sitetest

[ultima ratio]

I never said what you claim I said. I never said the New Mass was "intrinsically" harmful to souls. I said it was harmful to souls. There's a difference. One may attend the New Mass and not be harmed if one is sufficiently grounded in Catholicism and Catholic theology. But many--perhaps most ordinary Catholics--are not. So it's not "intrinsically" harmful--but can be harmful just the same for most ordinary Catholics--as we know from the rising data showing a loss of faith among Mass attendees in general, particularly regarding key dogmas such as the Real Presence.

[St.Chuck]

If Fr. Zigrang had been telling the bishop some of the things you and your ilk have been saying on this thread, such as the NO being intrinsically evil, then the bishop was right to question his mental health.

Seattle Catholic is way too sympathetic to the schismatic cause to be taken seriously. There is probably more to this story than what their myopic viewpoint would be able to see.

[ultima ratio]

Oh, really? Do you agree with Church teachings that Christ died in expiation for our sins and that the Mass should therefore be propitiatory in nature? If so--what are you doing defending the Novus Ordo?

[Land of the Irish]

I see the SSPX has a new Priest ...

Hopefully so. May many more good, holy priests follow in Father Zigrand's footsteps.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

When I sung in the choir for a Low Tridentine Mass (Offertory and Communion Hymns), I didn't find this distracting from attending Mass - I also winged it since I knew the songs. Same for serving Mass as an Altar Boy. When singing, it helped to be up in the choir loft looking at the Altar, rather than in the sanctuary performing to the people.

[sitetest]

Dear ultima,

Okay, heck, that's fine.

How about we replace it with "generally, usually harmful to souls"?

The rest of your post, I don't agree. I don't credit the surveys that you think you cite, I don't credit the methodology used by many of them, and I think that you confuse correlation with causation.

But in this thread, I don't have any argument with you. You, at least, come right out and say it: the new rite is bad. And yes, you do believe it is inherently bad, very bad, even, if not intrinsically evil (the latter phrase having a more technical meaning in terms of moral theology, and I was wrong to use it so sloppily).

You believe that the very structure of the new rite tends to take people away from Catholic faith. If that's what you believe, then it is a good idea for this priest to disobey his bishop. And if he thinks it, he is more intellectually honest to join the schismatics in the SSPX.

But most of the non-schismatics here acknowledge the validity, and inherent goodness and worthiness of the new rite, even if they prefer the old rite, and even if they believe the old rite is objectively superior to the new.


sitetest

[ultima ratio]

Again, you and sitetest have a penchant for getting it wrong. I never said the Novus Ordo was "intrinsically evil." I don't use such terms loosely. I said it was harmful to the faith--and this is provable statistically. Even Card. Ratzinger attributes Church reversals to its advent. And I have said it was seriously deficient--which it is, since it does not affirm Catholic doctrines. If one is schooled in the faith, no harm need happen by attending. But there are many subtleties in text and rubrics which undermine the Catholic faith and render attendance dangerous.

[sitetest]

non sequitur

[cpforlife.org]

"There's a serious temptation to blame all ills on the Novus Ordo--which temptation makes fools of those who do so." You are correct. Those with such a temptation should pray and learn.

There might be a few other factors--rampant materialism, faithless Bishops and priests, luxurious lifestyles (in comparison with the 1940's)---but don't think about those things. Again, I agree. There are of course many factors.

[Land of the Irish]

If Fr. Zigrang had been telling the bishop some of the things you and your ilk have been saying on this thread, such as the NO being intrinsically evil, then the bishop was right to question his mental health.

I'll get back to you later, the nurses here at St. Elizabeth's have just injected me with my final med's for the night. I'm getting very sleepy.

yes,yes Sizter Greenjeans, i love novus ordo, i hatehate trad..please no more shoks

[ultima ratio]

There never was a schism--but I don't expect somebody like you to admit this to yourself. It would involve conceding that not even a pope may declare something is black when it is white. But who are the schismatics, anyway--those who follow the Catholic faith--or those who create novelties? Does the side with the pope get to win simply by virtue of that fact? I don't think so. Faith trumps an unfaithful papacy in the final analysis.

[St.Chuck]

I never said the Novus Ordo was "intrinsically evil."

And I never said you did. Nevertheless, the post by LandoftheIrish, to which I referred, used the term "intrinsically harmful to souls", which may not mean precisely the same thing as intrinsically evil, yet is equally insane if that is what the priest told his bishop as I conjectured.

[Loyalist]

Bishop Fiorenza learned his lessons well from the KGB Manual for Suppression of Dissent.

The psychiatric hospitals of the old Soviet Union were filled with dissidents who obviously had to be mentally ill, because they did not support the new order of society.

(Incidentally, was Fiorenza ever involved with liberation theology? He might have encountered Soviet agents through the movement, given its close ties to various Marxist groups in Latin America.)

[ultima ratio]

Sure it follows. You wrote,"I've never proclaimed that any Catholic has a right to dissent from binding church teaching." Yet Trent was binding. What do you suppose inspires such animus against the Old Mass, if not Trent itself and its admonishments against Protestantism? You, of course, defend these same bishops--as you do the New Mass.

[narses]

No, I was making a generic comment. I actually misread your comments, I thought you said you were thinking of attending an Indult Mass.

[ultima ratio]

You don't think turning Catholics into Protestants is harmful?

[narses]

The answer isn't as simple as a yes or a no, but I hope I helped. BTW, Card. Ottovanni later restated his issues in a less confrontational manner and the Campos priests, just last year, regularized their relationship with Rome, never really addressing these points. They faced the death of their Bishop and that may have played a role.

[St.Chuck]

Bishop Fiorenza learned his lessons well from the KGB Manual for Suppression of Dissent.

Ya'll are terrible.

Maybe the bishop didn't feel a compelling need to change the rite at St. Andrew's for the sake of the handful of people that supported Fr. Zigrang's desire. Instead, he told the priest that if he wanted, he could say the Tridentine privately, and suggested to the parishioners that if they wanted, there was an indult at the Church of the Annunciation, in downtown Houston, a beautiful church, worth driving to every Sunday, in my estimation. Why inconvenience the many, for the sake of the very few?

You guys have a vastly different understanding of the Church than most Catholics, and your bias causes you to say some pretty bizarre and even vicious things. The KGB manual. At least that is a new one.

Bishop Bruskewitz has allowed the Tridentine to be siad in his diocese, anytime, and anyplace. I would be interested in learning how widespread the old mass is there. My hunch is that most church going Catholics and most priests aren't very inerested in it. Even in Lincoln.