Posted on 07/01/2003 10:22:12 AM PDT by ksen
C'mon, man. You can do better than that. You introduced Jerome's quote into the conversation. What did you think it meant and how was it relevant?
You usually make sense, but I don't understand this behavior. IF anything, the quote supports my position, but you presented it to me as if it refuted it. So what's up?
SD
I certainly didn't mean to say that there were never further controversies in the west before the situation died down.
SD
There is an indirect reference:
Acts 2:29,34
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens ...
In other words, David was not resurrected with the others, because of the murder of Uriah. However, he did obtain a promise that his soul would not be left in hell:
Psalms 16:10
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
>> why didn't Mark, Luke, John, Peter, or Paul write about the dead bodies of the saints marching through Jerusalem, appearing unto many? Also, how come Matthew doesn't tells us any of the names of the saints that rose from their graves? Why doesn't he tell us with whom the bodies of the saints met, and what they said; they said anything, and where they went after their appearance unto the many? Did the bodies of the saints dutifully return to their graves after a polite little visit, or did they remain for years among the residents of Jerusalem?
This wasn't "dead bodies ... marching". This wasn't like the 'undead' of the old Dracula movies. They did not "return to their graves".
This was the beginning of the first resurrection, with Christ the firstfruits. The spirits of the ancient saints, who had waited so long (Abel, the first martyr, waited about 4000 years) were reunited with their physical bodies. Everything was restored to its proper and perfect frame. Not a hair of their heads was lost. Their bodies "lived again", immortal and incorruptible, never to die anymore. After "appearing unto many", bearing witness of the reality of the resurrection, they "ascended into the heavens" to live with God in eternity and a fullness of joy.
>> Is there proof of veracity for this event that has so many unanswerable questions?
Yes, click on the link and read the full account of what happened just prior to that event:
D&C 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
And further on the topic of the resurrection, read the following in context:
Book of Mormon, Alma 11:44
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Book of Mormon, Alma 40:23
23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.
I bear witness that the resurrection is a reality, a free gift to all through the atonement of Christ, who saves us all from physical death, and from our individual sins on conditions of repentance.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
(Yes, Paul did have something to say about it.)
Leviticus 11
26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the only animals permitted for sacrificial purposes are those that have split hooves and chew their cud. ;On these grounds alone, human beings are disqualified for sacrificial purposes. Jesus, as a human being, was unfit for sacrificial purposes.
Leviticus 16
18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
Jesus (unclean human species and blemished) did not die within the Temple precinct, at the hands of an Aaronic priest, or through the shedding of blood. Jesus' blood was not sprinkled on the altar by the Aaronic high priest.
Leviticus 17
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
The Gospels indicate Jesus' blood was not shed to a degree that would make blood loss from the body the exclusive cause of death. Death solely by blood loss is the only biblical cause acceptable for an animal's sacrificial death.
An animal blood atonement offering must be physically unblemished.
Leviticus 22 24 Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.
Matthew 27 (as well as Mark 15:15, John 19:1)
26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
Jesus' humanity, the physical state of his body, (Jesus was physically abused prior to his execution), and the manner of his death (crucifixion) do not satisfy any blood atonement provisions found in the Hebrew Scriptures, and the death did not occur in the geographic location of the Temple.
So, no, it looks like Jesus' death didn't have anything to do with 'atonement'.
And this 'appearing unto many', bearing witness is not recorded by, Mark, Luke, John.... or Josephus. Why?
As for the other Gospels, there is no rule that they all have to be identical. Sorry. There are unique things mentioned by each author.
SD
You made an earlier claim that the western church did not have an Arian controversy. I simply pointed out that 34 years after Nicea, the vast majority of western bishops (all but five, if I recall correctly) signed on to a form of Arian belief. Of course those who were "orthodox" fought back. Eventually they carried the day (because the winds of power shifted back to their direction). And they wrote the subsequent history.
Had Arianism prevailed, today we would read about the early Trinitarian heresy which actually taught that the Son was equal to the Father.
Ok, fair enough!
Don't you think we should be consistent in method of evaluating?
Not identical. Just seems odd that such a spectacular event gets mentioned by or in one gospel.
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Jesus (unclean human species and blemished) did not die within the Temple precinct, at the hands of an Aaronic priest, or through the shedding of blood. Jesus' blood was not sprinkled on the altar by the Aaronic high priest.
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The Gospels indicate Jesus' blood was not shed to a degree that would make blood loss from the body the exclusive cause of death. Death solely by blood loss is the only biblical cause acceptable for an animal's sacrificial death.
.
Jesus' humanity, the physical state of his body, (Jesus was physically abused prior to his execution), and the manner of his death (crucifixion) do not satisfy any blood atonement provisions found in the Hebrew Scriptures, and the death did not occur in the geographic location of the Temple.
So, no, it looks like Jesus' death didn't have anything to do with 'atonement'.
Then you need to deal with the following verses which contradict what your statement that "Jesus' death didn't have anything to do with 'atonement'.
Ro 3:25a Whom(Jesus) God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood....Ro 5:9a Much more then, being now justified by his blood....
Eph 1:7a In whom we have redemption through his blood....
Col 1:14a In whom we have redemption through his blood....
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I Pet 1:19a But with the precious blood of Christ...
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures:
He 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
He 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
He 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
He 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
He 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Are all the above verses part of the Orthodox conspiracy?
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
They had resurrected bodies of Flesh and Bone and would not remain here. I have heard it said the Bible is like a book of ANSWERS to QUESTIONS!
Enoch was trnaslated and we are left with many loose ends, like so many times in this book!
I am thankful for what we do have.
Granted. But then again, this theory works only if you accept that God plays dice with the universe.
With the risk of sounding too Calvinist, God gets what He wants. His Truth is marching on, etc.
SD
All written for different purposes to different audiences. Only John mentions the Bread of Life discurse, yet look what Truth is in there.
Paul mentions "rightly dividing" the Scriptures one time and a whole dispensationalist theory emerges.
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word from God.
SD
Although I disagree with ET on blood atonement I still have to ask. Are Papal authority, apostolic succession, Pepetual virginity, and Immaculate conception of Mary all orthodox conspiracys? I believe you'd have to answer yes.
Was He playing dice with the universe when he wiped out the world and saved 8 people? Or when he came down and confused languages and dispersed peoples?
No, it would seem He was directly intervening. Which was my point. The Trinitarians didn't just "happen" to win out over the Arians. God didn't start a Church and then watch its message fall to outside forces. He wasn't "hoping" that the true message would overcome.
No. He guides His Church.
SD
Lol. That's pretty arogant to say that if you and yours have it wrong it must be God's fault.
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