Pope Again Reaches Out to Orthodox Church

Herald Tribune ^ | June 30, 2003

[Hermann the Cherusker]

So where was the great Orthodox missionary imperitive from 1054 to say, around 1830?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I'll address forcibly converting Serbs another time.

[Destro]

If you knew anything my post was about the Constantinopolitan Creed, that creed was declared perfect in its final form and unalterable and the Pope was there and he agreed and blessed the findings being that he was First Among Equals.

Did you skip over this part in your readings?

[Destro]

In Alaska! In Siberia! In China! In Finland!

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Father Sylvester....thou didst appear as a pillar of fire, snatching the faithful from the Egyptian error [the Arian heresy] and continually leading them with unerring teachings to divine light.

As the divine corphyaeous...thou hast established the most holy dogma, stopping the impious mouths of heretics.

O Sylvester, thou didst scatter the whole body of the enemy warring against the preaching of the apostles.

Tongues that accorded together in error were brought to nought, O Wise One, by the power of the Divine Spirit that wrought in thee and in one doxology to God the choirs of the faithful were united....

Thou hast shown thyself the supreme one of the Sacred Council, O initiator into the sacred mysteries, and hast illustrated the Throne of the Supreme One of the Disciples.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Latins who sacked the City and then enthroned a prostitute on the throne of the Patriarch in St. Sophia and called themselves "true" Christians in the process.

They can call themselves whatever they want. It doesn't change the fact that they were solemnly excommunicated well before the sack.

Now then, about those ever-loving and blessed servants-of-God of holy and eternal memory who beheaded Cardinal John, the Papal Legate in AD 1182 and then murdered much of the rest of the Latin community of Constantiople, sparing neither the elderly, women, children, monks, or priests, and selling those not killed into Turkish Slavery ...

Shall we start discussing THOSE Greeks as representatives of all Orthodox Christians?

[Destro]

and again I say from the Son is NOT the same as through the Son. I dare you to find the wording of the filioque creed written by any Church Father.

A great many Popes, before the Franks took over the Papacy, did not accept the addition to the Creed. Popes Leo I, Virgil and Agathon make no mention at all of the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son. Pope Zacharias clearly states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father yet remains in the Son. Indeed, during the Seventh Ecumenical Council Pope Hadrian I wrote to Tarasius, the Patriarch of Constantinople emphasizing that the Spirit proceeded from the Father alone. {PG 102 373d-375] St. Photius also tells us how the representatives of Pope John IX at the Council of 879 accepted the unchanged creed, and how Pope Hadrian III had written to him saying that "the Spirit proceeds from the Father"

The first Pope to fight the Frankish addition was Saint Leo III who ordered that the original Creed, without the Filioque, be carved on two silver plates and hanged in the Church of Saint Peter in Rome, with his own signature, saying: "This I, Leo III, have put to preserve the Orthodox Faith."

[Hermann the Cherusker]

We won't repudiate the teaching of the Fathers from the beginning.

Then you have a recent beginning relative to the Orthodox because the Nicean Creed-THE ONLY AUTHORITY on the matter (even the then Pope said so) has no filioque clause. I dare you to find it. Double dare you.

You don't even know what the Nicene Creed is. Once you go and read the Nicene Creed, and not the Constantinopolitan Creed, come back and talk. I double dare you to find any talk of any processions of the Holy Spirit in the Nicene Creed.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Luther subtracted from the faith, as your Patriarch well pointed out. The Roman Pontiffs have never done that.

[Destro]

You confuse defense with offense.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

So a true supporter of the Throne of St. Peter would not confront and turn back Atilla the Hun to save Rome from being sacked?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Orthodox prefer the wolves. They think it a Holy Death to die to the infidels rather than uniting to conquer them for Christ.

[Destro]

So now you subtract like the Protestants? The first draft of the Creed never mentions the filioque clause and neither does the second final version and as a "Catholic" you should know that the Church of Rome is said to adhere to all 7 ecumenical councils. Like I said your later Frankish Popes altered the meaning of Christianity, no different than what Luther did.

[Destro]

I would think a true Christian would rather a barbarian make a trophy of his head than live and betray the Church.

[Destro]

The Church was one then was it not?

[Destro]

conquer them for Christ?

What an abomination!!

Christians witness for Christ (martyrdom). They do not wage wars of conquest for him.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Emperor never acted as a priest

Sure he did. He alone of all laymen could go through the iconstasis, cense and preach to the congregation, and adminster to himself Holy Communion. He also claimed the right to call Ecumenical Councils.

There's nothing wrong with these privileges, properly understood. The Holy Roman Emperor in the west had somewhat analgous privileges, such as the veto over the election of the Pope.

[Destro]

He alone of all laymen could go through the iconstasis, cense and preach to the congregation, and adminster to himself Holy Communion....Yes but only to himself--and calling a council is not the same as voting on a council-which he did not do and only Apostolic bishops did.

[Destro]

There's nothing wrong with these privileges, properly understood.

If that is the case then why did you bring it up as if it was a problem? So as to shore up your argument?

[B-Chan]

There's a lot of love in this room.

God help us all.