My friend is seriously considering suicide. Is it ALWAYS wrong?

may 31, 2003 | tame

[drstevej]

See post #59. I agree with your assessment.

[Later, on another thread.]

[tame]

You reminded me about something I heard about free services...thanks! Joey did go into one hospital but the intake specialist turned him away becaue Joey said he was not plannig on killing himself at that very time but he was considering it in general.

Joey wanted to be able to get "out patient" counseling, but that particular hospital (which was covered by Joey's insurance) would only do "outpatient" for drug and alcohol addicts. Everyone else had to be in immediate danger of harming themselves or another, and then they would have to be taken "in patient". I thought that was a crock. What if Joey goes out and kills himself after the intake officer refuses him admittance! Seems to me Joey's family could sue the hospital.

I will follow up on some of your suggestions.

[restornu]

God loves us! We who are his children and he is the God of love and mercy.

That is why his Son Jesus Chirst paid the price for us, to satisfy the Law!

There is this Universal Justic System that must be fulfill or one is in bondage!

We should have a good thread on who did Jesus pay the ransom to His Father, the Devil or the was it to satisfy the Law!

God gives us a conscience to remind us to repent and to set things right! It we steal we must return, repay, to make whole again. Should it be some thing beyond our ability the Lord Jesus has covered the debt for those who humbly repent and promise to "Keep His Commandments!"

The devil can only offer dispair, and scorn and hopelessness. He delights in telling you how wicked you are and worthless. He denis your heritage of who you are a Child of God.

He would want you to believe you are the Son of Perdition (SOP) like he is. He would have you continue to believe the you are a wrenched and filthy and deni that when you come on to Jesus and repent and confess that the Lord is your savior and are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost as you companion, you become a new creation and no longer a victim.

For Heavevly Father enables to over come sin step by step.

That is why it is joy for the sweet clean feeling that one is truely capable of. An everyday is an opportuinity to wax stronger in the ways of the Lord!

[LadyDoc]

Has your friend received treatment for depression?

If not, he needs to do so at once.

Most religious people (not only Christians) consider that our life is not our own, but given to us by God. We all have a path to walk and a journey to go on. Suffering is part of this journey.

Seeing "withdrawing" from life as something good is saying God made a mistake. Even facing prison and indignity is not a reason to refuse to finish your jouney. Pearl Buck had a retarded daughter, whose life was "useless" to many powerful and hard working people. She was once asked if she wouldn't abort her child if she was given a choice. She said no, because her daughter's life taught her courage and charity, things that were greatly missing in this world.

One of my Chippewa patients, after being told to remove a feeding tube from a brain damaged but alert relative, commented to me that you americans don't respect your elders like we Indians. It's true. We Americans respect the hard working, the independent, the free. But our society needs the example of humility and courage in facing dependency and pain to remind us that we are indeed our brother's keepers and that charity lasts when money and power and health passes. Remember 911? There is a drawing of a cellphone in the rubble, saying "I love you"...what was important when death comes was not one's salary or one's strength, but those we loved and the ties to them that will outlast this world.

That said, those deeply depressed cannot see these things. Medication might help. Even hospitalization might help. Prayer helps. Friendship helps. But the terrible negativity of depression makes one blind to the love and beauty around a person...this is why suicide is terribly wrong, but a loving God will often break thru the self hatred at the moment of death and save the soul.

[tame]

Has your friend been taken to or gone on his own to receive competent spiritual and medical help? Yes or no?

Yes. Also, see post #62.

Don't be offended, but something in this strilkes me as less than up front.

As a matter of fact, it does seem offensive. I'm a straight shooter. and the response seems to be "Be warm and well fed" (the book of James)>

If you want to discuss the ethics of suicide start a thread. If you want advice for your friend, I think this thread has done that and should end.

This does both. WHy should it end?

[LadyDoc]

he is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

Chuck Colson went to prison and came out a better man.

[tame]

What better way to have an "ethic of suicide" thread than to include, or base it on an actual case in point? Maybe you're feeling helpless to help anymore and that may be causing you some irritation with this thread?

[tame]

Chuck Colson went to prison and came out a better man.

Chuck Colson was a boy scout compared to Joey, plus Colson didn't have to worry about being out on the street because of his earning potential. BTW, please see post #62 in response to your question about med treatment. The short answer is "yes."

[tame]

BTW, what do you think of the response from the hospital to Joey in post #62?

[drstevej]

you have freepmail

[tame]

You have freepmail.

[restornu]

If you want to discuss the ethics of suicide start a thread. If you want advice for your friend, I think this thread has done that and should end.

This does both. WHy should it end?

***

I think we are given a little insight here on earth!

Yes some kinds of suiside might not lead to hell, but it also rules out any opportunity for advancement!:) If you got what I mean!

Like King David he had it all and was going to have a high station with the Lord! But his indifferents to the Lord commandments cost him!

He will be saved and also demoted!

If one takes their life they might think they did not have a much to lose?

Yet that act it self could cost another demerit!

Look at those soldiers in the movie "A Few Good Men!", their life was spared, but they received a dishonorable discharge! (so one did not go to hell, but because but one received a dishonorable discharge one was NO longer could qualify for a promotion in the future!

It is best whatever it is to work it out on this side!

[newberger]

tamw,

From what you've said about Joey, he *wants* to kill himself.

All of the "reasoning" on his part is justification. Your discussions are actually, I believe, feeding his determination. Please don't be an "enabler".

Please *don't* say again to him that he is safe from hell.
Even if he is, he will use your words to justify his death.

Tame, I'm not speaking from just opinion.

A year ago last March (3/25/02) a friend called to cancel
a dinner appointment at which I wanted to start steering him
to the gospel and choosing life (he was very depressed about
his divorce which had just occurred). That night he took
his life.

Tame, please STOP trying to reason with him. He is not refusing
payment from others or inpatient care, etc. because he is
conservative! He is rationalizing his own death snd is
usinig YOU to justify it.

If you are his friend, and I'm aure you are, get off the
Internet. SKIP CHURCH and get him to a hospital NOW.

Do NOT wait.

Paul

[Thinkin' Gal]

the manner in which it was written would tend to push him further toward the choice of "checking out" because he would be angry, when he gets angry he tends to get more "foggy" in his perception, and he starts to feel even moe hopeless

Oh, come on. Besides, it was written to you. If you agree with many of the points, address them to him in a manner you deem appropriate. And if pointing out that he should not commit suicide primarily because it is a final one-way ticket (whereas this life does have options), would make him feel more hopeless and even more suicidal... egads. If you meant the part about him being a coward, well, the truth either sets people free or makes them flee. He needs to repent, not play guilt-trip mind games on sympathetic friends.

This really is a pity party, and you've apparently fallen for it, well-intentioned as you may be. I am not trying to attack you at all... just trying to point out that this person may be manipulating you in a big way, driving home my suspicions that he's on a narcissistic soapbox.

There is a reason I am writing this in the manner I do. It's because certain behavior requires stern warning, not mamby-pamby delicateness. The warning comes with the Scriptural answer: he needs to a) repent, and b) listen to God, not use to Bible to justify sin.

One more thing I'd like to add...

If he's decided to mete out the death penalty on himself for whatever he's done, then he is aware of the concept that the wages of sin is death. However, he is woefully ignorant (or refuses to believe) in the cross. IOW, he's an unbeliever. If he were really a Christian, he would know that Yeshua already paid the price for his mistakes, and therefore he has no business playing judge, jury, an executioner on himself. Even the Mosaic law required 2 or 3 witnesses to establish the crime and prosecute. He is putting himself in the place of God, which is not a good postion to be in on the "other side".

Best Regards.

[tame]

I'm a very straight shooter with Joey and I know him very well. One thing I do not do is be oevery sympathetic. As I said, I know him very well, and I know 1) he is a Christian. 2) He really believes in this circumstance it may be the right thing to do.

It is convenient to say "Well, he's just not a christian or he wouldn't do that", but then that could be said about any number of sins that many christians commit.

[tame]

Don't worry, Paul, I'm taking your advice to heart. Please pray, okay? Thanks for your advice:-)

[newberger]

Definitely!

[tame]

This really is a pity party, and you've apparently fallen for it

Don't worry. It's sure no pitty party and I will not let myself be manipulated. I can be tough on him. believe me!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There is no repentance from suicide.

I never thought of it like that before, but of course you're correct.

Suicide is like demanding the ultimate last word over God.

[RnMomof7]

Sucide is passive agressive behavior. The real purpose is to cause terrible pain and guilt as an inheritence to those behind while you "cut out"

There is not one of us that deserve anything but death and hell. Your friend does not have a monopoly on sin , or shame.

He is feeling sorry for himself it is all about him!

Does he think he is more sinful than the man that God used to build his church?  

  Act 9:1   And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,   
  Act 9:2   And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.   
  Act 9:3   And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:   
  Act 9:4   And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?   
  Act 9:5   And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.