Where Have All the FR Protestants Gone? [A Month Later]

drstevej

[Tantumergo]

More of your mindless unsubstantiated claims. Most of these relate to abuses or reading in to the new rite what was never there.

Any criticism of the rite should deal with it as it is - not as it is abused.

[ultima ratio]

You are the one who apparently has a faulty understanding of these usages. "Subsist" was used instead of "is" precisely as a concession to other Christian churches, especially the Orthodox. It was meant to suggest--and does--that the Church of Christ exists elsewhere and is NOT identified solely with the Catholic Church. Only the verb "is" could establish such an absolute identity--which is the verb that had always been used by the Church in its preconciliar documents. By rejecting this term, the bishops broke radically with traditional Church doctrine and introduced a distinct and troubling novelty.

[drstevej]

***angels and saints cry out Holy, Holy, Holy, in worship of the Lamb of God.***

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. ¹² In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,

to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength

and honor and glory and praise!"

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

be praise and honor and glory and power,

                             for ever and ever!"

• Not who continues to be slain.
• Not who appears in the Mass.
• On the throne, not the cross.

[St.Chuck]

So would that make the 5:30 PM Saturday anticipated Mass illicit?

It's my understanding that the Sabbath would begin at sunset. The prayer of the church, the divine office, will always begin with vespers, so an anticipated mass on Saturday evening is consistent with Catholic tradition, which should hearten you.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Sniff, Sniff. It's BACON!

[Tantumergo]

""Subsist" was used instead of "is" precisely as a concession to other Christian churches, especially the Orthodox."

Prove it - don't just assert it like a mindless parrot!

"It was meant to suggest--and does--that the Church of Christ exists elsewhere and is NOT identified solely with the Catholic Church."

Show me where in any school of classical theology that any entity can have more than one subsistence.

You will never help the cause of Tradition by promoting falsehood.

[ultima ratio]

"Oh, so He's not on the altar in umpteen places where the host is consecrated?"

Sure He is. Because He said so. Which is why we Catholics celebrate the Mass as the Mystery of Faith--not as a nice place to meet our neighbors, hear the Word and sing hymns in the way of Protestants. Novus Ordo excepted, of course.

[Loyalist]

The prayer of the church, the divine office, will always begin with vespers, so an anticipated mass on Saturday evening is consistent with Catholic tradition, which should hearten you.

To my knowledge, Mass was never anticipated on Saturday evening until after Vatican II. What tradition could anticipated Mass possibly be consistent with?

In any event, the Church has no power to dispense with the Third Commandment and thus move the Sunday obligation to Saturday evening.

If it could do that, why not just make Mass any day of the week fulfil the Sunday obligation?

[Tantumergo]

"It's my understanding that the Sabbath would begin at sunset."

Correct - if anyone doubts it they should read the first chapter of the Bible: "evening came and morning came, the nth day..."

[St.Chuck]

What tradition could anticipated Mass possibly be consistent with?

The Hebrew tradition that the Sabbath commenced with the preceding sunset.

[Aloysius]

It's my understanding that the Sabbath would begin at sunset.

So would the anticipated Mass celebrated (not offered) well before sunset on Saturday be illicit?

[ultima ratio]

"More of your mindless unsubstantiated claims. Most of these relate to abuses or reading in to the new rite what was never there."

Enough of your nonsense. Show me exactly where I am inaccurate. Did Luther begin by throwing out the Offertory, yes or no? Did he have the presider face the assembly, yes or no? Did he convert the altar to a table, yes or no. Did he eliminate mention of the saints, yes or no? Did he eliminate any outward show of veneration for the Sacred Host, yes or no.

Luther did all of this--precisely what his imitators are doing in the conciliar Church. You are brain-dead if you haven't noticed the parallels. Nor are these abuses as you claim. Rome has itself sanctioned such changes and the bishops improvised the rest--with Rome's eventual approval. These are routinely Protestant attitudes and practices--but they are not "abuses" per se.

[Loyalist]

The Hebrew tradition that the Sabbath commenced with the preceding sunset.

Leave Jewish tradition to the Jews.

There is no Catholic tradition to support the practice of Saturday evening Mass.

[Aloysius]

The Hebrew tradition that the Sabbath commenced with the preceding sunset.

Ever hear of the New Covenant?

[drstevej]

The crucified and risen Jesus is present with us as we gather in His name. Do you deny this?

[ultima ratio]

Oh, but this is precisely what happens at a Catholic Mass. The Victim is He Who was already slain and will reenact the original sacrifice on Calvary for our sake. This has been the Catholic Tradition from day one. Thus is the Father rendered propitiation for our sins.

[Land of the Irish]

You forgot the anticipated Mass at 5:30 PM Saturday. So much for keeping holy the Sabbath.

About as holy as "celebrating" Ascension Thursday on a Sunday; so as not to cause the "flock" to suffer such a terrible burden of obligation.

What's next? "Christmas Sunday"?

Remember, VC II is a living, breathing document that is still being interpreted by its proponents. Have you noticed that there are no Novus Ordo Missals. I'm talking about the hardbound copies that one could own and read up on, prior to Mass. Now the only thing available are the missalettes and they usually are disposed of and replaced every 3 to 6 months. Why? Because they are constantly being changed. I guess they (ICEL) still can't get it right after forty years.

[sinkspur]

The anticipated Saturday Mass cannot fulfil the Sunday obligation, because to claim so is a direct contradiction of the Third Commandment. Not even the Pope can dispense with any of the Ten Commandments.

You are ordinarily rational, but this has got to be the silliest thing you've ever written.

The anticipated Mass is not dispensing with anything. It extends the opportunity for fulfillment.

Does attending the Easter Vigil satisfy the Easter Sunday obligation? It always has, even in the pre-Vatican II days, when we celebrated the ceremony at 8:00.

The third commandment was given to the Jewish people, who celebrate it on Friday, into Saturday. Are they violating the third commandment as it was given to them?

[drstevej]

***The Victim is He Who was already slain and will reenact the original sacrifice on Calvary for our sake***

Which is it?

the one timeless sacrifice
or
the one sacrifice reenacted

The description keeps changing....

[Loyalist]

The third commandment was given to the Jewish people, who celebrate it on Friday, into Saturday. Are they violating the third commandment as it was given to them?

I do not question the sincerity of the Jewish people in believing that the Old Covenant continues.

But Christ established the New Covenant, which in fulfilling the Old Covenant also extinguished it.

The New Covenant moved the Sabbath to Sunday. The Old Law must now be read in light of the New Covenant.