The Theology of John Calvin

http://www.markers.com/ink/bbwcalvin2.htm ^ | Benjamin B. Warfield (1851-1921)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God is calling. He is knocking.

And if man chooses not to answer the door, man is out of luck and God is flummoxed; thwarted in His good intentions because as you've told us, God wants all men to be saved.

Maybe if you read this contradiction enough times, it will register.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Then you're an Arminian, my friend.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Oh Lordy, when they pull out Servetus, it's time to hit the sack...and hope it doesn't hit back.

[fortheDeclaration]

Exactly. Man cannot surprise God. And Satan did not surprise God. All word games aside, God cannot be surprised.

Now, that is a surprise! :>)

[fortheDeclaration]

Secret will! Still you trot out this graying canard, endlessly chuckling at your three-syllable knee-slapper. "God's secret will" refers to the knowledge known by God and not by you or me.

No, it refers to knowledge not revealed by God in His Scriptures.

Thus, it is the sword that cuts the Gordian knot when Calvinists run into contradictions like Calvin did in 2Pet.3:9 and Spurgeon did in 1Tim.2:4.

When they can't explain why God says one thing (He wants all men saved) but is not doing so, then out comes the 'secret will' or unrevealed will' of God, that explains why Scripture says one thing but God is really doing something else.

Like Jn.12:32!

Unless perhaps you think you know everything God knows. In which case, remember what happened to John Nash.

See, I do not know everything that God knows, since I do not even know who John Nash is!

I do know the Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

And clear scripture defines obscure scripture.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Surprising in the short run, but immeasurably comforting in the long run. 8~)

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

God does not lie. He does not make insincere offers. He states clearly that he wants all men to be saved. If you have to change the words of the Bible to fit your theology, then it is time to change theologies. When all the scriptures are balanced it is clear that God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son and that God truly wants all men to be saved.

Now that we are over our (ecumeno)pause, we need to address some real concerns. i agree with your first two statements, God does not lie, He does not make insincere offers.

The unfortunate part is that the idea that God wants all men (and just what do you mean by "all men") to be saved. If we find apparent contradictions, it means that our interpretation of one or more passages is wrong (both cannot be right at the same time and in the same relationship.)

The controversy in that particular verse is that for one side or the other to be correct, both must postulate something. The one who believes in the universal offer must postulate that the word translated "all" (get this Greek font from crosswalk.com, no time to post the link), or paÖß, means "all without any exception". Since it is a self-evident truth that all men are not saved, and a revelation of scripture that God's will cannot be resisted, the other extreme must postulate multiple aspects to the will of God, with absolutely no scriptural warrent to do so.

It is imperative that we train our laymen to reason from the Scriptures, and be encouraged to learn the original languages, (trust me, it's not that tough, i taught myself Greek over 20 years ago, and read it fluently, next task, Hebrew) because quite a few sincere, execelent bible Scholars disagree with that assessment (that all, as used in that verse, means all without any exception) for excellent gramatical, syntactical, and contextual reasons, not preconcieved theological reasons.

[fortheDeclaration]

I see in Acts 10-11 an unsaved man seeking God... "...No one seeks for God." [Romans 3:11]

Cornilus did in Acts.10!

Maybe Romans 3:11 is hybolic to make a point that both Jews and Gentiles are both equally in sin.

After all, not all men are as wicked as the description of those who follow in vs 13-18.

I know that verse is one of the Calvinist key proof texts, but the fact is men do seek God even if blindly, needing God's light (Acts.17:27,30)

That was the point Paul was making to the Greeks with their worship of idols, that they were seeking but needed the truth.

The Jews likewise were seeking,but had 'zeal without knowledge' seeking to work their way to God and rejecting faith as a means of salvation.

[fortheDeclaration]

Surprising in the short run, but immeasurably comforting in the long run. 8~)

Amen!

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Exactly. Man cannot surprise God. And Satan did not surprise God. All word games aside, God cannot be surprised.

Now, that is a surprise! :>)

Enough with the puns already! My head still hurts from improvising false doctrine that i did not believe at the spur of the moment, and improvising "arguements" to support it from the scriptures, and trying to sound convincing, just to make a point. (and they say i'm not flexible enough, HA!)

[fortheDeclaration]

Only man's rejection can...negate God's goodness." Yep, that's exactly where your faulty logic takes you. Powerful man; inept God; ineffectual grace.

Not if it is how God wanted it!

If God wants to give man the ability to say 'no' as well as 'yes' who are to answer back to God?

And ineffectual grace is a forced grace since grace is an aspect of Love (not power as the Calvinists would have it) and a forced love is a contradiction.

[fortheDeclaration]

Enough with the puns already! My head still hurts from improvising false doctrine that i did not believe at the spur of the moment, and improvising "arguements" to support it from the scriptures, and trying to sound convincing, just to make a point.

Anytime my head begins to hurt from improvising false doctrine that I do not believe to support with scripture to sound convincing, I just....whooops!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We've both read enough Scripture (you probably much more than me) to know that there are plenty of "dueling Scriptures."

And God has instructed us that He will open our eyes and ears to the truth as we read and understand that Scripture.

Part of God's grace upon us as we read the Bible is our human logic. So when Scripture seems to contradict, God intends for us to logically seek His meaning.

For me, a Reformed perspective helps answer those profound questions most clearly and righteously and positively.

John Nash was the nutso game-theory Princeton RAND CIA Nobel Prize winning mathematician in "A Beautiful Mind."

[so_real]

Really ?!? That's kind of exciting for me. I've been sort of theological wanderer. I've spent time learning about a variety of Christian denominations (dare I admit, even the Witnesses and Mormons) and each seems to have its own Biblical conflicts.

A time ago, I thought I found my home with Calvinism. How exciting to find a group that reckognized and sought to rationalize the omniscient God with a creation capable of exercising his will even to the disgrace of his Maker! But I could not -- and I mean no disrespect to any Calvinist here; we have all excepted Jesus' gift of redemption, we will are all redeemed -- I could not be satisfied with the Biblical conflict Calvinism has with what I found in the Bible regarding God's efforts that none should perish.

Most recently I am learning about a very old-fashioned Lutheran synod. I have a great respect for these people, it almost feels like home. However, I was surprised to learn that in reforming the Church, Luther downplayed the necessity of "works" to almost non-existence. And I really have a hard time accepting the practice of close/closed communion. As Jesus created communion, I feel it is a sacrament intended for all who have faith in Him and is above denominational separation. But, they do make an honest effort to understand the very letter of the Word and put their actions where their mouths are. I find that very admirable.

I confess that I don't know a thing about Arminism. I'll have more homework to do now :-) Regardless I am very pleased to be your friend, Doc.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...a forced love is a contradiction.

You're stealing lines from Hallmark again.

Not if it is how God wanted it

Whatever God wants, He will get. So we agree on that. Good.

You say God wants all men to be saved.

But He doesn't get that. All men are not saved.

Maybe your supposition is incorrect and God doesn't intend for every man to be saved.

If God wants to give man the ability to say "no"...

Even Lucifer didn't have the ability to thwart God's holy plan.

He may have said "no" but that's just what God intended. Nothing happens that is not God's intent. Nothing surprises God.

He's God. He has the final cut.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Luther down-played the necessity of works to almost non-existence...

And thank God he did, or we'd all be Catholics.

Sola Fide. Salvation through faith alone. Works are of man; they do not earn merit badges in heaven.

The only way to heaven is through God's grace. It flows from Him to us; not the other way around.

Re: "none should perish." Do you think any perish?

[so_real]

God does not lie. He does not make insincere offers. He states clearly that he wants all men to be saved. If you have to change the words of the Bible to fit your theology, then it is time to change theologies. When all the scriptures are balanced it is clear that God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son and that God truly wants all men to be saved.

Again, I would agree with you. I would go so far as to say, that because God did give his creation free will, He *doesn't* always get what He wants with respect to His creation. That includes the salvation of everyone; many will indeed perish.

For those here who feel strongly that, because God has forordained all things, He empirically gets everything He desires, I submit Luke 13:34

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Jesus, Himself, indicates His displeasure with the creation denying the will of the Maker.

There is still a paradox with an omniscient Creator give the creation "true" free will. I understand how the Calvinists try to resolve this paradox. I understand how I try to resolve this paradox. How do you try to resolve this paradox and are your views representative of the Arminian position?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Jesus, of all people, knew that the will of the Creator is never denied.

He's either God, or He's not.

[so_real]

Re: "none should perish." Do you think any perish?

Sadly, I am sure of it ... many.

I agree that salvation is brought by grace alone (that none should boast). But in the Book of James some emphasis is placed on "works" for justification. I need to study that more as it troubles me. Any insights?

[so_real]

He's either God, or He's not.

He is :-) I know you and I agree on that!

Where we differ is that I believe God set man apart from the rest of the animals to have a free will that he can exercise either for the pleasure of God or to evoke the wrath of God. How enjoyable it must be for God to have a creature that worships Him of its own volition!