The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 10

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Would Calvin be considered a Covenant Theologian? IOW, would Calvin preach that Israel has been set aside and that the Church is now the inheritor of all the promises?

Hey, good to get back to this! There is a basic misunderstanding on what Covenant Theologians believe, and that prompts your question. My default answer is to reject the premise: Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews. The Reformers have taught that the identity of Israel, hence the promises to Israel, will be fulfilled by the Church. This understanding comes from Paul in the Romans letter. "All Israel is not Israel". It does NOT follow that God does not deal with the Jews. Evidence of this is individual Jewish Converts. It simply means that The Gentiles and the Jews who encompass the church have replaced the national entity of Israel. So, yes, Calvin is a Covenant Theologian.

[RnMomof7]

First of all Kevin you need to know (or perhaps you do know) that all Calvinists are not "Covenant Theology " believers . It is not NECESSARY to hold the Covenant Theology view to be a Calvinist or an A mil believer..

A question to DCL..Is unregenerate Israel still part of the original covenant or did the New Covenant "disown " them

I have read on this forum that some Arminians even believe that Israel may have a different means of salvation ....highly unscripitual IMHO..

Kevin thanks for the bump back on this..I have decided to cut my FR time..but it is nice to have something to read when I do show up:>)

This is a Institutes 10 clean up flag

[ksen]

First of all Kevin you need to know (or perhaps you do know) that all Calvinists are not "Covenant Theology " believers . It is not NECESSARY to hold the Covenant Theology view to be a Calvinist or an A mil believer..

No, I didn't know that. I always thought that Calvinism and Covenant Theology went hand in hand. Thanks for the heads up though. ;^)

I have read on this forum that some Arminians even believe that Israel may have a different means of salvation ....highly unscripitual IMHO..

I've read that too, I agree with your assessment.

Kevin thanks for the bump back on this..I have decided to cut my FR time..but it is nice to have something to read when I do show up:>)

You're welcome Mom. I've got a bit of spare time now so I think I'll go get chapter 11 and post it.

[ksen]

Thanks for your answer CDL.

[jude24]

35 ¶ Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

- Jer. 31:35-37 [NASB]

God will never cast off Israel, whom He foreknew.

It's a huge mistake to confuse the spiritual Israel with those who are Israel after the flesh -- one which too many dispensationalists do. But it's an equally big mistake to confuse the church with Israel -- one which the amils often make.

[RnMomof7]

It's a huge mistake to confuse the spiritual Israel with those who are Israel after the flesh -- one which too many dispensationalists do. But it's an equally big mistake to confuse the church with Israel -- one which the amils often make.

Clarify please

[jude24]

Dispensationalists often, mistakenly so, confuse the political entity of Israel with that which is spiritual. "Spiritual Israel" is those elected by God's sovereign grace to believe in His Son.

The problem is that amils seem to equate "spiritual Israel" with the church, which just doesn't compute. Else, why this?

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Rom. 11:24-29 [NASB]

Now, the Israel here is clearly not the church (notice v. 28-- they're enemies to the Gospel at this present time, yet elect!). The only conclusion I can come to, therefore, is that the church and Israel are as yet distinct.

There will come a time when all Israel will be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I still don't know how the eschatology of that works out, but this is what I do know.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Sorry i'm late to the Party mom, tough day at work, but a productive one.

A question to DCL..Is unregenerate Israel still part of the original covenant or did the New Covenant "disown " them

Unregenerate "Israel" was already under condemnation, the same as unregenerate Gentiles. Let's not loose our perspective.

i do happen to be one of those who believe that the church IS Israel. It is the Israel of the Promise, and consists of Gentile and Jewish believers throughout all history.

If that bothers you, shoot me.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews.... It does NOT follow that God does not deal with the Jews. Evidence of this is individual Jewish Converts.

This is an absolutely beautiful argument, CDL. I wish I'd thought of it (and be assured that I shall now plagiarize it).

It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

This is particularly re-assuring to me, because I have always maintained... I am a Zionist. I don't have any moral objection to that Label. I wear it freely. OP = Zionist; Zionist = OP.

What I am not, at least any more, is a Dispensationalist Zionist. I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

It is my belief that God has a better plan entirely for the Jews. "All Israel shall be Saved". I believe this on the basis of of the Salvationist promises of Romans 11, not an idolatrous and therefore Materialist worship of modern Socialist Israel.

Unlike the Dispensationalist Zionists, my support of Modern Israel is in no way whatsoever founded upon the (anti-Christian) belief that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People. Modern Israel may be incorporated into God's Plan for the Salvation of the Jews (at least if the "Jews for Jesus" have anything to say about it, provided that the Orthodox Jews of Israel do not OUTLAW their Evangelism), but Modern Israel does not represent the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

Rather, my Zionism is a political Zionism. I believe that Contracts are Binding, and that Men should Honor their Word. A Bargain was struck in 1917 between the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists -- the Turkish Empire would be destroyed, both the Zionists and the Arab Nationalists would support Great Britain in her War against the Turks.

In return for Zionist and the Arab Nationalist support ("Lawrence of Arabia", y'all?), it was agreed that 99% of the Turkish Middle East would be given over to Arab Nationalist regimes, and 1% of the Turkish Middle East ("Jewish Palestine", from the Mediterranean to the River Jordan -- including the so-called "West Bank") would be given over to the Zionists as a "Jewish National Homeland".

As such, I am sorry to have to tell the Palestinian Arabs to go "piss up a rope", and since I am not a Dispensationalist Zionist, I have the Theological Honesty to criticize Modern Israel for her human-rights violations against the Palestinian Arabs for what they are -- human rights violations, whether the Israel uber alles Dispensationalist Zionists want to admit it or not.

But at the same time, if the Representative Principle means anything, I am prepared to advise the Palestinian Arabs, get with the program -- your Muslim Arabic brethren agreed to accept 99% of the Turkish Middle East as the price of their support for gutting the Turkish Empire, and they agreed to cede 1% of the Turkish Middle East to the Jews as the price of Zionist support for gutting the Turkish Empire.

Either you agree to become peaceful, productive citizens of Zionist Israel (Israeli Arabs enjoy fundamental Constitutional rights), or you agree at least to non-violent protest of your situation... or you move. Your Muslim Arab brethren control 99% of the Middle East, and that is your alloted portion. Contracts are Binding, and Men should Honor their Word.

The funny thing is, even Turkey seems to understand this. Israel has few better allies in the Middle East than the Kemal-Ataturkized Nation of Turkey (Turkey -- from whom the land was stolen -- which is a crying shame; A Turkish Middle East would be far easier to deal with, and if unruly Arabs must be managed, I think it was a better world when the Turks spent their own Blood trying to manage them, then if America must expend her own Blood).

But despite giving their Word, at the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1921 Paris Peace Agreements, the Arab Nationalists and the Palestinians still can't seem to get with the program (even when Turkey, CAN).

• And that is why I regard myself as a Political Zionist.
• I do not believe that Modern Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People. It is my belief that God has a better plan entirely for the Jews.
• But I nonetheless wholeheartedly affirm Israel's Right to exist, and without discounting the fact of Israeli Human Rights violations, I have to advise the Arab Nationalists and the Palestinians to get with the program -- your Representatives agreed to accept 99% of the Turkish Middle East as the price of their support for gutting the Turkish Empire, and they agreed to cede 1% of the Turkish Middle East to the Jews as the price of Zionist support for gutting the Turkish Empire. Contracts are Binding, and Men should Honor their Word.

And so...
I AM A Covenant Theologian.
But at the same time, I AM A Zionist.

(Whether the Dispensationalists can accept that or not)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

i do happen to be one of those who believe that the church IS Israel. It is the Israel of the Promise, and consists of Gentile and Jewish believers throughout all history. If that bothers you, shoot me.

The church was not born at Pentecost. It was Bar Mitzvah'd. No small matter, this. The church had a long, albeit dotted, history by the time the Spirit in Christ's fullness fell, and a glorious, albeit difficult, future. By Pentecost, the church, because of its history, its providentially-ordained organization and the Holy Spirit's promised guidance, was well-prepared to fulfill its function in the world.

The Belgic Confession, in Article XXVII, states, We believe and profess one catholic or universal Church... This Church has been from the beginning of the world, and will be to the end thereof... It has not, however, always had the same form. In the Garden of Eden God identified and separated the church (then consisting of two) using the essential elements, Word and Sacrament, Promise and Token, which would be present throughout the church's history, in some form or another. Our first parents were created to understand themselves and all things else in terms of a word. They had received the defining Word of God; they had heard the anti-word of the serpent. Choosing the devil's definitions, they had broken covenant with their Creator and entered into league with the destroyer, becoming co-pretenders with him to the throne.

God was not about to forsake His purposes, or to quickly formulate a Plan B. He graciously and forcefully took back Adam and Eve-He redeemed them-by placing hostility between them and their new master (the Antithesis), by promising in their hearing the incarnation of the conquering, suffering Messiah (the Protevangelium, first proclamation of the Gospel), and by clothing them with God-provided coverings (the Sacrament), indicating in the clearest terms that their fig leaves (their instinctive effort at self-atonement/covering) were wholly inadequate and unacceptable. It is God who saves. Calvinism did not originate in Geneva; it is found in Eden. God's people, the Covenant Line, would henceforth be the people redeemed by Him to live, once again, in terms of His Word. ~~ Rev. Steve Schlissel, Jewish-Christian Presbyter, “The Synagogue of Christ”

[xzins]

It certainly gives the Lie to any "dispensationalist" claims that Covenant Theology is "anti-Semitic".

OP, it would be inappropriate to accuse covenant theology of being anti-semitic. It is only possible to accuse individuals of being anti-semitic. In this world, past and present, there have been a variety of folks who have dehumanized Jews. This was true even before Jesus, so there's a deeper problem there than just the satanic claim that they are "Christ-killers."

The most prominent haters of Jews have been politically persuaded. Nazism used racism as one of its means to acquire and maintain power and to justify expansionism. Stalinism simply extended czarist pogromism to violate racial groups....especially Jews.

Covenant Theology is an EASIER vehicle for advocating anti-semitism because it does displace Israel. With Israel intentionally being set aside by the theology, it is easier for unscrupulous or unbalanced individuals to abuse that idea into an anti-semitic position.

Dispensationalism, as I understand it, could ALSO be abused. In it, Israel has been "set aside" for an indeterminate period of time. I can see an an anti-semitic position being built from that perspective were an unscrupulous person to abuse it. (After all, people DO follow Binny Hinn, and did follow Jim Jones, Joe Smith, etc.)

Dispensationalism simply has never been in a position of political influence as has covenant theology. CT, in terms of being an articulated position, is older, was the position of the Reformation, and found its way by that into governmental circles. Luther did not help with his conversion to a thorough-going Jew hater late in life. His writings in that period did serious damage, and they are an area of his theology that need to be repudidated by every generation of Lutherans.

[lockeliberty]

I agree with you that the Jews are still God's favored people. I also agree with you that all the so called prophecies about 1948 Israel are false. In essence, the Jews are still in exile spiritually. However, the Church is Israel since we gentiles have been grafted in. In the fullness of time when the Jews repent then shall the end come.

The dispensationalists incorporate too much discontinuity between the covenants. God's plan has always been a kingdom here on earth of covenant believing people. While the terms of the covenant has changed because his people were unfaithful to their obligations the plan of the covenant has not changed. God's plan here on earth was for his image (humans) to be multiplied throughout the earth and that those images would take dominion over the earth. God worked his plan through his favored nation until they became so unfaithful that he grafted in the gentiles. I believe, however, that God is waiting for his favored people to repent and complete multiplication of his image and dominion over the earth is accomplished and then the end will come.

[RnMomof7]

I have looked on it that all that are Israel are not Israel..(spiritual) and so we are grafted into the spiritual Israel..BUT the political Israel will remain untill the end..

[RnMomof7]

Would you agree with my 33 ?

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

While i do not wish to go into it in a public forum at this time, i believe that Political Israel passed away.

My views on this subject are far too controversial, though not at all anti-Semitic, and i wish to waste no time in attempting to defend a matter that is not an essential to me, and has little immediate importance to me.

[RnMomof7]

It seemed you were speaking of a national (ethnic identity) in a later post did I misread you?

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Not certain that i said anything of the sort. Are you certain that you didn't confuse my post(s) with something similar that Jude24 posted?

i do not hold to the view that the present "State of Israel" has any particular prophetic significance.

i'm not quite certain of what you are referring to mom, could you ping me to it?

[RnMomof7]

Israel as a national entity was set aside, Not the Jews. The Reformers have taught that the identity of Israel, hence the promises to Israel, will be fulfilled by the Church.

Seeing that there remains a "Nation of Israel" ..I thought you were seperating the national from the spiritual

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

"Set aside" was undoubtably a poor choice of words on my part. My apologies for the misunderstanding. i hold that the National identity of Israel has passed away, and that the promises are to the Church that encomapses both Jew and Gentile.

BTW, it is quite obvious that as a culture the Jews are still with us. Whether or not this holds any prophetic significance i cannot determine, though i lean away from such an idea.

[lockeliberty]

I have looked on it that all that are Israel are not Israel..(spiritual) and so we are grafted into the spiritual Israel..BUT the political Israel will remain untill the end..

I don't distiniguish between a spirtual and political Church. The Church's importance is both spiritual and political. Therefore, I don't distinguish between a spiritual and political Israel. Since, after Israel repents, there will be no distinction between Jew or Gentile in the Church there will be no need to distinguish any political differences. It is not a national Israel that we look forward to but an international Church that includes the Jewish people. Further, I would add that geography is important too.