Rome is Burning while the Pope is Fiddling (A Reply to Carl Olson and Envoy Magazine)

Catholic Apologetics International ^ | January 3, 2003 | Mario Derksen

[Zviadist]

It took over 70 years for the Russian communists to fall.

If you believe they fell, that is. I tend to believe they ventured into other enterprises. Like the Church...

[ultima ratio]

"I've given you the benefit of the doubt far too long. Your efforts give aid and comfort to the enemy, if for no other reason that your obsessions take you away from real apostolic endeavors."

You are too full of yourself. Why should we care what you think of us? You say we give aid and comfort "to the enemy". But YOU are the enemy--and others docile like yourself who follow a new and false paradigm of Catholicism--and we give you no comfort at all. It is you who support the systematic destruction of the Old Faith by refusing to admit the horrific wrong that has been done to our ancient Church and its Tradition. What you do instead is condemn those who dare to speak up against its destruction.

[sitetest]

Dear Polycarp,

What an excellent post!

Here are some other things posters may consider doing:

- Be involved in your parish. Your parish in communion with the local ordinary, and the Bishop of Rome. The one filled to the rafters with sinners, with those not terribly serious about their faith, with those not terribly knowledgeable about their faith. Your parishes desperately need you. It isn't that all the Catholics in our churches wish to be less than fully-Catholic, it is that they often are given insufficient guidance on how to be Catholic. Be the salt of your parish, the light, not hidden under the bushel basket, the leaven in the loaf.

- Fight the heretics that really are trying to take over our Holy Catholic Church, a la NYer, who successfully faced down some "liturgists" in her own parish and diocese;

- Become a beacon of orthodoxy by becoming a permanent deacon, a la our very own ThomasMore;

- Go to the Annual March for Life in Washington, if you can at all make it;

- Be an effective on-line apologist, fighting falsehood and death at every turn, a la Polycarp

- Take leadership roles in your parish, so that the Catholic truth that you know can be a light to others:

serve on the (ugh) liturgy committee,
serve on the (ugh) Parish Council,
teach Bible study (just go in well-armed),
teach CCD,
join your local Knights of Columbus Council,
and be the leaven of the loaf

And accept that you will have some victories and some defeats. Accept your victories, grateful to God for His grace. Accept your defeats gratefully acknowledging that God allows you to share His Cross.

And pray without ceasing.


sitetest

[Zviadist]

The recent series on EWTN-" the documents of VATICAN II ", show the huge gulf between what was actually published, and what was done by the liberal clergy to change the Church in their image.

Yeah yeah yeah, the "springtime" is just around the corner. Mother Angelica is a protestant creep.

[Scupoli]

This is a good article BTW. One thing that I have been considering as of late, what kind of a Council require us to "figure out what it meant", 40 years later no less?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

It's sad but the intellectual attempt to disentangle Vatican II (as a council)theoretically from the social and cultural upheaval of its actual misapplication in the U.S. since the 1960s always gets muddled in translation. The apt metaphor might be distinguishing Pearl Harbor from Hiroshima and the Bataan death march. Obviously something went very wrong somewhere between the sessions in Rome and what happened in U.S. seminaries afterwards. Where to point the blame is the great debate.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

"portraying Vatican II as an attempted reconciliation of Catholicism and modernity is ridiculous..."

Actually, the liberal version of American Catholicism which has dominated the Church here since the 1960s makes Catholicism subordinate to various ideologies and cultural trends of radical modernity. If one were to look at certain peculiar post-Vatican II trends at U.S. seminaries and at places like Georgetown University, for instance, this is not that hard to document.

[Maximilian]

He's bought the John Birch Society line that the Masons are behind the destruction of the liturgy.

This has me curious - what can you tell me about it? I know someone who is utterly convinced that this is true - do you have any info you can post?

Read Annibale Bugnini's own autobiography. He was the head of the commission that created the New Mass. He admits that he was ousted from the Vatican and sent to Iraq because Pope Paul VI believed he was a mason. He denies that he was. But he himself says that Pope Paul believed it.

[sinkspur]

This has me curious - what can you tell me about it? I know someone who is utterly convinced that this is true - do you have any info you can post?

Go to The Remnant website or The Latin Mass Magazine or any other "ultra-traditional" website. Or read Richard Williamson's commentaries (he's a schismatic bishop in the SSPX). You'll find all kinds of Masonic theories behind Vatican II and the death of John Paul I.

Loons are loons, whether in politics or religion.

[Maximilian]

Where the hell are you guys on all the culture wars threads and general "Catholicism versus the world" apologetics threads?

Thanks for making an exception for me (on the other thread). But please remember that the heresy of "Americanism" that was specifically condemned by Pope Leo XIII was to prefer activism to contemplation.

All the activity in the world, no matter how good the intentions, will be worthless and even counter-productive if we do not first have a solidly-established spiritual life. First we must be living a life of grace. That means NO mortal sins. No contraception, no pornography, no mastubation, etc. If any of these still have any hold on our hearts, then we are only fooling ourselves if we think we should be involved in external activity. "Physician heal thyself" first.

Having obtained that bare minimum level, then we need a solid prayer life, true devotion to Christ crucified and His Sacred Heart, and a determined attempt to be fulfilling the will of God, not our own ideas. As you have frequently pointed out with your links to the wonderful booklet, "Surrender to the Divine Will," we can only be achieving something worthwhile if we are doing what God wants -- and that is almost never the same thing as what we want.

Even after meeting all of these requirements, we should still keep in mind that contemplation is higher than action. Contemplation must always come first. Rendering unto God His just due must always take priority. If at that point we believe that God is calling us to some activity, then we can attempt to undertake it with some confidence that it will not be counter-productive.

To use a metaphor, do you believe that it would be a good thing if Protestants got a lot more active trying to convert Catholics? Of course not -- they should discover the truth first before they chase around converting others. The same thing could be applied to many Catholics, including traditional Catholics as much as any others.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

Where the hell are you guys on all the culture wars threads and general "Catholicism versus the world" apologetics threads?

All protestants profess that the Catholic Church fell into apostasy and that their church represents the true, lost faith. These "Traditionalists" are merely members of the newest protestant denomination.

[tiki]

That is what I beg of all Catholics. I tell them that I know they are busy but if everyone just gives a little so much more can be done.

In my parish I am the volunteer bookkeeper, I teach 1st grade CCD and pre-confirmation, I work at almost all fund-raisers, clean the Church one month a year, I'm on the adult education and social activities commitee. There are many in our parish who work hard and I try to do as much as I can but there is so much more that needs to be done.

Please, please, try to give a few hours a week at your parish besides attending Mass. Just ask and if no one will tell you what to do, just show up and stand around until you figure out what to do. Ignore the petty, human bickering and accept that you do this for God through the urgings of the Holy Spirit.

[Coleus]

join your local Knights of Columbus Council>>>

There is a pro-abort, Catholic Congressman in NJ, with a 76% NARAL record (he's against PBA) who is a knight, supreme will not do anything about it.

You can also suggest that one starts or joins their respect life committee in their parish.

[Desdemona]

Look, I know you're high on all this, but you have to understand, life goes on and it can all be fixed, it's just not going to happen overnight like you want it to.

And furthermore: QUIT PAINTING THE ENTIRE CHURCH WITH ONE BRUSH.

It ticks me off to no end when there are blanket statements made that DO NOT apply universally. Very slowly, liberal bishops are being replaced with the orthodox. My bishop is one. There are places where dissent was put into practice, yes, but things have changed. The seminaries, in some places are much more orthodox.

Do some homework, please. Liberalism in the church is dying out.

[ultima ratio]

High on this? Are you kidding? I'm sickened by this. You people are closed to all reality. The ship is sinking and you are lounging on deck waiting for the captain to do something. He's just stunned, amazed his brand new modern "Catholic" ship has struck an iceberg when it was supposed to sail into clearer waters. You think if you hang around long enough it'll right itself up. I've got news for you--it's time to man the lifeboats.

[marshmallow]

No Catholic is bound to believe (nor may he believe) that whenever a Pope calls a council, it's necessarily a good idea. But the Neo-Catholic is quick to call people who disagree with this "disloyal." They have lost the sense of the True Faith. They have, in effect, started to worship the Pope. Their intentions are noble, no doubt, but intentions don't suffice.

No my friend, we don't worship the Pope. It's you who worship "tradition". All in the name of serving God, of course, but the mentality is similar to that of the Pharisees when they said to Jesus; "We don't need you to teach us, we have Moses and the Prophets."

Just because one is not "bound to believe" that the calling of V-II by the Pope was the work of the Holy Spirit, does not mean that it is a good idea to believe that it is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Similarly, just because the Pope is not speaking ex cathedra, which he does rarely does, does not mean that's it's a good idea to believe he's in error.

Is it really such a large jump from the position expressed in the article that we have a Pope who is actually damaging the Church, to the sedevacantist postion that the See of Peter is occupied by a "false" Pope? It is a very small step in my opinion.

One trend which appears to be evermore pronounced is the fixation of SSPX and other groups with the person of JP II. More and more of their invective is being directed at him and less and less at the true enemies of the Church, which they profess to be fighting. That's not surprising. When one is shattering the unity of the Church, whether from the left or the right, it is always the Pope who is the primary target of attack. Nothing has changed down through the ages. The Rock who is Peter was and always will be the primary focus of Satan's hatred.

[Snuffington]

Tsk.. tsk. You suffer through an equal if not superior amount of modern Church nonsense. You ought to suffer through the hyper-traditionalist nonsense with equal fortitude.

Believe me, I realize there is a surfeit of kooks among the Catholic traditionalists these days. I spent the better part of this past day with a childhood friend and current priest discussing this very issue. But unless you seek another Orthodox schism, washing your hands and walking away is not the answer.

Stay around. Let excesses beyond your energy pass without comment lest they drain you beyond your capacity. But please... STAY AROUND.