By the Time We Got to Woodstock: Vatican II and the "Spirit of Woodstock"

The Remnant Online ^ | December 31, 2002 | Christopher A. Ferrara

[Zviadist]

headed by a Vicar infallible in matters of faith and morals

Only when he invokes this infallibility from the Chair. Which this pope has never done.

[ultima ratio]

I myself think the Pope has more in common with Princess Diana than Woodstock.

[ultima ratio]

"The blame for Vatican II and the disasters in the Church that followed can be attributed directly to the strong Catholic culture that prevailed in many Western countries in the 1940s and 1950s. The same Catholic culture, ironically, that many traditional Catholics long to revive when they attend the Tridentine Mass."

This is an looney statement. How is the preconciliar Church responsible for the excesses that followed Vatican II? The Council was a modernist revolution designed precisely to destroy the Catholic culture that preceded it.

[Desdemona]

I think that litirgical reform is both desperately needed and well on the way; our Anglican Use parish (priest faces tabernacle, altar rail, kneeling, Communion on tongue, pretty statues, candles, incense, bells, organ/vocal music, trad vestments, 100% altar-girl/clown/banjo free) is packed to the rafters at every mass. As our priest says, "The Age of Aquarius can't last forever"; God will protect His Church from modernism in His Own sweet time, not ours.

I think you're right, but it's going to have to be phased back in. And the altar-girl thing...this is the one part of the NO that is going to be rough to switch back.

[ultima ratio]

"You sure about that?"

Not always when dealing with some of you. I've been driven nuts on occasion, I admit.

[Snuffington]

There are many priests who will not celebrate the Tridentine Mass, and they should not be forced to.

I personally know some young priests who do not wish to celebrate the Novus Ordo. They would like to celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

Is it your opinion this choice should be left to them? (Incidentally their bishop is currently "forcing" them to celebrate the Novus Ordo, if indeed "forced" is the right term).

[Snuffington]

There are many priests who will not celebrate the Tridentine Mass, and they should not be forced to.

A non-existant problem but for what it's worth, I agree.

Please see my post (#68) to sinkspur above. What do you think about the situation of the young priests I mention, and what liberty do you think their bishop ought to allow?

I don't think the solution to this issue is as simple as you state.

[ultima ratio]

Nobody cares if a woman covers her head. It's traditional, but not a big deal.

[Zviadist]

Nobody cares if a woman covers her head. It's traditional, but not a big deal.

It is in our church. It is a sign of modesty before God. That is a big deal. You cannot cut corners on things like this.

[marshmallow]

I'm not sure that you understood my post. I'm simply saying that in the year 2003, I doubt if there are any priests who are being "forced" to say the Tridentine Mass.

Rather, the more common situation is the one which you describe for the young priests. Those who wish to celebrate the Tridentine Rite but are prevented from doing so.

I say let them.

[Desdemona]

The more I think about this...

I quit cantoring and song-leading at the parish where I grew up in July. The break has been very good and really I want to get back to it (somewhere else), but in the last six months as a congregant a lot of the USCCB arguments have fallen flat. And I mean flat. Specifically musically, but in other ways as well.

Before Mass there are always people trying to pray, and the prelude music - unless it's REALLY good - gets in the way (so does the priest walking down the aisle greeting people). The newfangled Mass parts are NOT sung by the congregations. THey may hum along, but the old chant is sung much more forcefully, and the higher the tessitura the more people will sing.

When the bells are missing, you can feel the collective "where are they?" And incense never hurt anybody. I've been at a number of high Masses recently and the people pay more attention with the incensor being used.

So, I'm not convinced that the changes were all for the better.

[marshmallow]

I myself think the Pope has more in common with Princess Diana than Woodstock.

This is where you guys blow a lot of the capital you build up with your sound arguments about liturgy. There is an animus towards the Holy Father on the part of many in the Traditionalist movement. No question.

The current Pope is not a movie star or royalty. His whole life has been steeped in suffering. Moral and physical. Firstly with the loss of his mother, then the Nazi occupation of his homeland and then the communist oppression. During his pontificate he has been shot, had cancer and now is partly paralyzed with Parkinson's. He is the anti-Princess Diana.

[RobbyS]

Cyprian , one of the great bishops of the African Church, and a Church Father, was a very rich man. He managed to walk through the eye of the needle.

[NYer]

It turned the priest into an entertainer who could now see his audience. The focus now became the "audience" rather than Jesus truly present.

I respectfully disagree. Think this through carefully. Turning the altar and priest around enabled the faithful to become participants in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. At the Passover, Christ sat with his disciples; not with his back towards them.

Where I have a BIG problem with some dioceses, however, is when they move the Tabernacle to some remote location in the church and place the presider's chair directly behind the altar. It is my understanding that VCII sought to "restore" the mass to its humble beginnings, as it was celebrated in the early church. There are many flagrant abuses of this "humility".

It's the rite of most of the saints on our current calendar.

That may be very true but the Novus Ordo Rite has resulted in the conversion of many modern day protestants. (please spare me the requisite parallel of the Novus Ordo liturgy to protestant services.)

[RobbyS]

The irony is that the liberals hate him too. He must be doing something right if he is hated by people at each extreme.

[malakhi]

You might appreciate this story.

Many years ago, I attended a mass at a new local Catholic parish. The parish had begun by building a school first, with masses held in the gymnasium. After a number of years, they finally built the church itself. It is a model of post-Vatican II architecture: in the round, raised altar area, abstract stained glass, about as unadorned as you could get. There was NO crucifix or cross! The only one was the one the priest carried in and placed in the holder.

Anyway, I was there this one Saturday evening, and the mass was being led by a visiting missionary priest who had spent the last 40 years in Korea. At the start of his homily, he made the comment, "When I was waiting for the processional to start, I was wondering if I was at the right place. But when the singing started, I knew that this was really a Catholic church."

There were more than a few shocked expressions. ;o)

[RobbyS]

Proof of this can be seen on Salon.com