The Dispensational Origins of Modern PreMillennialism

Credenda/Agenda Vol 7 No. 3 ^ | 2000 | Jack Van Deventer

[Jean Chauvin]

Unfortunatly for dispensationalism and your current argument, Paul has told us that "the promiseS" made to Abraham are made to him and his singular seed, Christ.

Paul does not distinguish between one promise in Gen 22, Paul tells us that ~all~ the promises to Abraham.

Therefore, the argument you present is over ruled by Paul's apostolic authority!

Paul, as does all the N.T. clarifies the O.T.

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

Correction:

"Paul does not distinguish between one promise in Gen 22, Paul tells us that ~all~ the promises to Abraham."

Should read:

"Paul does not distinguish between one promise in Gen 22 and all the other promises to Abraham, Paul tells us that ~all~ the promises to Abraham."

Jean

[bzrd]

"The just shall live by faith"...Paul says in his letter to the Romans.

The OT saints were justified by their faith in GOD; of course it is unprovable, but I suspect many of them saw the hoplessness of keeping the letter of the Mosiac Law and just came to the place where they trusted GOD for their salvation--by faith.

It is quite possible many of them saw Christ the Messiah in the OT [no, they could not have known Him as Yeshua]--even Job said "I know my redeemer lives and at the latter day I will see Him in my flesh" Job 19:25

No one though, comes to the Father but through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ...either before or after the Cross.

Brian.

[bzrd]

The key phrase in verse 28 is "for you all are one in Jesus Christ."

A present day descendant of Abraham who is not "in Christ" is still part of Israel and not the Church. Israel has recieved temporal blessings from GOD as part of the promise given to father Abraham---who can deny that Jews are and have been, historically important, in that their contributions to science and culture are unsurpassed.
They alwasys rise to the top, where ever they have gone; indeed, this has been part of their demise as anti-semitism almost always is a mask for envy.

Believers in the risen Christ also share in the temporal blessing portion of the promise given to Abraham--but their blessings aren't limited to the temporal realm, but the spiritual as well.

At any rate, GOD is far from finished with His Chosen People...He has not given up on Jacob.

Remember when the brothers of Joseph came into Egypt after having counted him forsaken. It wasn't until their third trip into Egypt that Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.

This is a shadow of the future when Israel "...will look opon Him whom they pierced, and mourn..."

Rev. 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ..."

...as the Hebrew Messiah.

Brian.

[RnMomof7]

The Old Testiment is full of promises to the descendents of Abraham; and full of unfulfilled prophecies about God's future treatment of descendants of Abraham. To interpret the words about grafting Christians into these promises is to modify them so as not to give the descendants of Abraham what God promised Abraham He would

  Rom 11:17   And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

     Rom 11:18   Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

     Rom 11:19   Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

     Rom 11:20   Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:   

  Rom 11:21   For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

     Rom 11:22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

     Rom 11:23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

     Rom 11:24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?   

  Rom 11:25   For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,

[RnMomof7]

I see the Church gone and the focus returns to Israel. I see the trib as the woodshed to bing Israel to repentance and reception of her Messiah.

Who is going to preach to to Israel when the saints are gone?

[drstevej]

Jews who are converted after the rapture.
How will they hear?
Easy, they log onto FR and read all the great Calvinist posts that are archived. This thread ought to make great reading. :-)

[RnMomof7]

No answer huh?

[drstevej]

That was my answer.

When the Church is removed it is not unreasonable to envision the result being many Jews realizing that Christ is indeed the Messiah resulting in a revival in Israel (Ezekiel 37).

[RnMomof7]

When the Church is removed it is not unreasonable to envision the result being many Jews realizing that Christ is indeed the Messiah resulting in a revival in Israel

Except that is not biblical

    Rom 10:14   How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

     Rom 10:15   And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

     Rom 10:16   But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

     Rom 10:17   So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[drstevej]

***Except that is not biblical ***

Balderdash. Stop and think.

There will be millions of Bibles not raptured. There will be thousands of Christian books explaining the gospel. There will be oodles of cassette tapes and video tapes with the gospel message.

Thousands have come to Christ over the years reading the Bible and books or listening to tapes when there was no one communicating live and in real time.

The rapture removes believers, but not all Christian literature, etc.

[drstevej]

Hypothetical: Bobby believer has been witnessing to a Jewish friend for years but Jimmy Jew has balked at the thought of Jesus as Messiah.

One evening Bobby shows Jimmy Isaiah 53 and asks Jimmy to read it thoughtfully to see if it is not talking about Jesus, the Messiah. (He doesn't suggest the burning bosom test, BTW) Bobby then explains that one day Jesus will return for believers and take them to be with Him.

The next morning Jimmy discovers that Bobby and millions of others are gone. He picks up the Bible and reads Isaiah 53 and embraces Jesus as his Messiah and agressively witnesses to everyone around him.

Purely hypothetical.

[RnMomof7]

The "anti Christ " courts the Jews for three and a half years..rebuilds the temple He IS their Hero ..then he turns on them..also anyone that refuses the mark will be killed..so your story is unlikely

[drstevej]

ok if you say so.

[RnMomof7]

Actually Daniel says so according to pre trib teaching..You are of course free to believe what you will..but if you can not PROVE it with the word it is worth nothing and should not be taught to others...

[drstevej]

***but if you can not PROVE it with the word it is worth nothing and should not be taught to others... ***

This discussion began with your question... ***Who is going to preach to to Israel when the saints are gone?*** which I have answered.

The rapture removes Christians not all Christian witness. It's just that simple.