St. Paul Not a Christian, Says Theologian

Acts 2:30,31; Acts 2:36; Acts 2:37,38 references, re, Christ not on the throne of David as yet.

These verses refer to Christ as the prophesized Messiah, as you correctly state. They do not however, indicate that Christ is on David's throne as yet. Why? David's throne is to be here on the earth; but Christ is in heaven waiting to return to the earth. Acts 7:49,55,56 indicate this. By the way, why is Christ standing rather than sitting? Please don't give the wrong answer that He is standing waiting to receive Stephen into heaven. For further clarification, Heb. 8:1 indicates Christ is "set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens," and 12:2 indicates he is "set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Israel needs to go through Christ to be saved, just as the gentiles do.

True, but Gentiles don't have to go through Israel, as they did in the past and will again need to in the future.

These words of Peter are clearly addressed to Israelites who rejected their Messiah and who had a part in crucifying hem and know they believe that he is Israel's Messiah and find salvation in him. This is Israel transformed from rejecting Jesus as Messiah to accepting him as Messiah, and this is the same group of people into which a little later on gentiles become members.

You are correct about Israel accepting Christ as their Messiah, with this group known as the "remnant," or the "little flock." However, you are mistaken about Gentiles becoming members of the Jewish "little flock."

I appreciate your concern for rightly dividing the word of truth, but I don't know how much clearer the words can be at this point. Peter says point blank that Jesus is the son of David placed on David's throne by means of the resurrection.

Actually you are reading into these verses what is not there. How do you read Mt. 19:28 and especially 25:31? Is Christ not referring to David's thone here? If that's proper interpretation, then it is clear Christ assumes the throne of David when He "shall come in his glory," which is the second advent. In Rev. 3:21, Christ says "I...am set down with my Father in his throne." This indicates Christ's assumption of David's throne is yet future from His perspective. This is in keeping with other verses on when Christ assumes David's throne.

Paul says exactly the same thing in Acts 13. . .

You keep reading "throne" everytime "Messiah" is referred to directly or by inference. Messiah is not the same thing as "King," sitting on David's throne. Christ is their savior, as He is ours, as well as redeemer.

The promise made to Abraham is irrevocable and Gal 3 makes very clear that it was fulfill by the one singular seed Christ. All the blessings of salvation including the promise of land are found in him and shared will all who believe in him as the text clearly says.

You're correct the promise to Abraham is irrevocable. That promise consists of three aspects, spelled out in the Palestinian, Davidic and New Covenants, and all are fulfilled in Christ. The blessings of salvation are, in fact, for all believers. The salvation "package" is different for Israel than for the Body of Christ (this is a truly edifying study). However, the land is promised to Israel, not the Body of Christ. We have a heavenly calling and position, per Eph. 1:3 and 2:6. You have to twist these verses in an attmept to make us Israel if you don't rightly divide.

Scripture makes clear that there are two Israels. The Israel that rejects Jesus as Messiah. The Israel that already has received Jesus as Messiah. There may well come a time when Jews after the flesh will believe in Christ. But Scripture is clear that Jesus is the fulfillment of OT promise to Israel and that many of that very Israel believed in him for remission of sins and eternal life. One such was Simeon. . . So also Mary, Zacharias and Anna according to the gospel of Luke.

You are correct, there are two Israels: the apostate Israel and the believing Israel, or little flock. The Body of Christ is not in view here in Luke. Simeon, Zacharias, Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph and Anna are among the "little flock" of true believers. Not trying to fit the Body of Christ into the little flock minimizes much confusion that otherwise results.

So grace do you believe that there will have to be animal sacrifices to be acceptable to God?

For the fourth time, NO! I don't know how to answer you any more clearly than I already have. Read Hebrews 9 and 10, especially 10:8-14, 18-20. It is clear that in Christ's blood, "there is no more offering for sin." That says it much better than I could.

Jesus was in a glorfied body the first friuits we will be like Him...so will we be omnipresent? Was Christ EVER omnipresent IN His glorified body after the resurrection?

As God the Son, He has the same attributes as God the Father. In His resurrected body, He was able to pass through walls, yet be able to eat and be touched. As previously stated, angels have spirit bodies, yet take on human form and can eat, be touched, inflict physical harm, lift very heavy items, etc. No, we won't be omnipresent, but we will be able to exist in outer space, which is not possible in our earthy bodies of clay. We will also, like Christ, be able to step into and out of other dimensions. I think you must like to argue for the sake of argument.

One more question Grace..Are Christian jews today IN Christ? Or are they denied being IN Christ because they are Jews?

First, there is "no difference" today between Jew and Gentile in God's program of grace, hence there are no Christian Jews, per se. There are Jews by birth who are Christian, however. Every believer in the dispensation of grace is "in Christ," because we're placed, or baptized, into His body, the Body of Christ, the instant we're saved. If you're asking about God's program with the Jews, Romans 9-11 makes it clear that program has been temporarily set aside "til the fulness of the Gentiles by come in," so there are no saved Jews today under the law/prophetic program. That program will start again after the Body of Christ has been Raptured.

I read your first sentence and stopped. I will not engage you in a debate when you are willing to be so presumptuous.

What you have not realized is that I used to be a dispensationalist, gracebeliever. I was a veritable walking encyclopedia of eschatology. For that matter, almost all of today's amills were dispensationalists at one time or another.

I urged you to seriously consider non-dispensational hermeneutics, and you scoffed at my proposal. Well, I suspect that I know both sides of the argument better than you do.

See my post to gracebeliever.

Trust things are going well with you and Becky.

Things are great! I guess you missed it on the other threads. Mack and I will be grandparents in July:)

Becky

For the fourth time, NO! I don't know how to answer you any more clearly than I already have. Read Hebrews 9 and 10, especially 10:8-14, 18-20. It is clear that in Christ's blood, "there is no more offering for sin." That says it much better than I could.

Then we seem to have a conflict in scripture don't we? I know what Hebrews says and I know what Ezekiel says ..only one can be true

As God the Son, He has the same attributes as God the Father. In His resurrected body, He was able to pass through walls, yet be able to eat and be touched.

I did not ask you if a resurected body could pass through walls I asked if it could be in 2 places at the same time..a VERY different question grace..

Spiritually Jesus is omnipresent ..but is He physically? Do you have scripture on that or is it your best guess?

I asked on the Jewish salvation because it has been said by some pre tribs that there is a DIFFERENT salvation for Jews and Gentiles..thus the animal sacrifices in the temple..and this statment of yours seems to say you actually agree

Romans 9-11 makes it clear that program has been temporarily set aside "til the fulness of the Gentiles by come in," so there are no saved Jews today under the law/prophetic program. That program will start again after the Body of Christ has been Raptured.

Could you provide me scripture on that and when Christ will be "raptured"??This is all news to me

Romans 9-11 makes it clear that program has been temporarily set aside "til the fulness of the Gentiles by come in," so there are no saved Jews today under the law/prophetic program. That program will start again after the Body of Christ has been Raptured.

Could you provide me scripture on that and when Christ will be "raptured"??This is all news to me.

Or for that matter, raptured from where?

***the Body of Christ has been Raptured.***

Body of Christ = the church
(Note capital "B")

That scriptural reference to Paul's "spectacular experience" is intended to illustrate "how Christianity leaves behind Judaism and becomes a movement among the Gentiles," explained Mr. Schowalter, who added that Paul never referred to himself as someone who had been converted from one religion to another.

This is absurd. Then why would Paul have said thusly:

"Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision' which is performed in the flesh by human hands---remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and stranges to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments . . ." (Eph. 2:11-15)

And of himself, he said: ". . . for we are the true circumscision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence int he flesh, I far more:

circumcised on the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamim, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee, as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own dervied from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the rightesouness which comes from God on the basis of faith." (Phil. 3:3-9)

Paul tells us there has been a fulfillment of the requirements of the Old Testament sacrifices and commandments, through faith in Christ Jesus. Jews are no longer required to meet the Law, as Christ our Savior has already fulfilled those requirements and satisfied the Law, on the Jews' behalf, and then the Gentiles. Through Jesus, the two groups have been merged into one. Paul clearly knew there was a significant change in Judaism. And Paul could boast to Jews about his meeting all the Jewish requirements; about his "ability" to not "require" Jesus Christ, according to their traditional views, because he did met and even exceeded the requirements of the Old Testament Law.

What he wanted the Jews to know was, that wasn't good enough; it still falls short. Paul realized that what God wanted was not Law givers/abiders, but believers in His Son, the ultimate fulfillment of all the Law and, therefore, our means to peace with God.

AH

GB to the_doc: "Apparently you only have a superficial understanding of dispensationalism. In fact, most theologians misunderstand dispensationalism and teach their misunderstanding. .."

the_doc to GB (in #63): "What you have not realized is that I used to be a dispensationalist, gracebeliever. I was a veritable walking encyclopedia of eschatology. For that matter, almost all of today's amills were dispensationalists at one time or another. ...".

That is true in my case.

GB to the_doc: "Dispensationalism is a method of Bible study based on "rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2Tim. 2:15."

"Rightly dividing the Word of Truth"??? Read what another ex-Dispensationalist had to say about that Scripture:

The Application of the Scriptures: A Biblical Refutation of Dispensationalism - By Arthur W. Pink

[snips]

".... these would-be super-expositors dogmatically assert that the four Gospels are Jewish, and that the epistles of James and Peter, John and Jude are designed for a "godly Jewish remnant" in a future "tribulation period," that nothing but the Pauline epistles contain "Church truth," and thousands of gullible souls have accepted their ipse dixit-- those who decline so doing are regarded as untaught and superficial.

Yet God Himself has not uttered a single word to that effect.

Certainly there is nothing whatever in 2 Timothy 2:15, to justify such a revolutionizing method of interpreting the Word: that verse has no more to do with the sectioning of Scripture between different "dispensations" than it has with distinguishing between stars of varying magnitude.

If that verse be carefully compared with Matthew 7:6, John 16:12 and 1 Corinthians 3:2, its meaning is clear. The occupant of the pulpit is to give diligence in becoming equipped to give the different classes of his hearers "their portion of meat in due season" (Luke 12:42).

To rightly divide the Word of Truth is for him to minister it suitably unto the several cases and circumstances of his congregation: to sinners and saints, the indifferent and the inquiring, the babes and fathers, the tempted and afflicted, the backslidden and fallen."

[snips]

Notes [At the end]

1 Arthur Pink wrote these series of 5 articles just before his death on July 15, 1952. They were published in Mr. Pink's Studies in the Scriptures for the June through (posthumously) October, 1952 issues.

A number of contemporary Dispensationalists have been republishing some of Mr. Pink's writings from his dispensational days, this is unfortunate, but as these articles show Mr. Pink's position was against the dispensational school of thought up till the very month of his death.

HERE

opsssssss.A misread on my part..Hey Steve when does Jesus return to the Great White Throne from Earth?

You know it makes me feel VERY old MPI..I was alive when Pink died...shhhhhh Here I had always though of him as a theologian from another era:>)

***Hey Steve when does Jesus return to the Great White Throne from Earth? ***

Whenever the_doc tells Him its OK. :0)

Pink thought like a theologian from another era. Ditto for Tozer. Two great writers.

:>) I was serious though ..is there anything taught on that in pre mil theology

reply via freepmail

Looks like the Great White Throne is in UTAH! In ZION State Park.

Maybe the Mormons are on to something... :0)

"...when does Jesus return to the Great White Throne from Earth?"

I know!! I know!!! LOL

In the non-existent second stage of his "second coming".

God's rule over creation has always been through a mediator. Therefore his mediatorial rule cannot be restricted to the Millennium.

Of course, for Dispensationalists to make their theory work, they insist that Scriptures teach both a universal and a mediatorial kingdom which are *two aspects* of God's rule.

VOILA!!! The "mediatorial kingdom" is the Millennium in which Christ will reign on earth!!