The Twenty Mysteries of the Rosary?

You are wrong on so many levels it's difficult to know where to begin.

1. Evolution does not begin with a revolt as you suggest. The old Mass evolved under divine guidance, according to the teachings of the Church itself. There were minor changes in rubrics, a slight alteration of some prayers over the centuries, but the Canon of the old Mass of the Roman Rite was fixed by the fifth century. Changes were minor and never radical. What has happened since the Council is radical change which has always been antithetical to Catholicism and from which the Church has always instinctively recoiled. Why should this be so? Because it is the duty of the Church above all else to protect its deposit of faith. That is why the Church herself exists--to protect the faith and administer the sacraments. That is what the Pope takes a solemn oath to defend under pain of excommunication: he must guard and protect the traditions which have been handed-down to him. That is his major function.

2. The rosary is not the question. That it has already been changed in minor ways is true. What alarms traditionalists is not the change itself but the clear intention by modernists to leave nothing of the old Church untouched and free from reformulation. The addition of a decade of aves is not in itself a big deal. But it goes along with radical changes in the Mass and reformulated sacraments, along with the new interpretations of essential Catholic doctrines--all of which directly threaten the deposit of faith. As novelties they need to be viewed with suspicion as extraneous and alien to the innately conservative spirit of the Catholicism. That they are not, but are dismissed as inconsequential by masses of Catholics who blindly follow this Pope in his headlong revolution, is troubling. Vatican I warned: "For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the Successors of Peter that they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might faithfully set it forth." It is the papacy's primary function to be conservative of tradition, not to invent new beliefs or to participate in the suppression of the old ones.

3. It is nonsense we can't do anything about the corruption. The first requirement for reform is to recognize the problem, to be honest about it, which people on this site who defend the Pope have a hard time doing. It must be said frankly: he has known for decades the seminaries were corrupt and has ignored their corruption. Yet they were not always so. Just fifty years ago the seminaries and novitiates were bursting with chaste and orthodox and straight young men. Within ten years of the Council the theology of formation changed accompanied by a liberalized moral theology that encouraged sexual acting-out, even by seminarians. This was when the gay culture made its inroads in diocese after diocese. It is well-known there simultaneously sprang up a homosexual network of bishops who promoted their own and groomed as their successors the priests they had affairs with. The result has been an entrenched gay culture which has led to scandal after scandal, blighting the lives of many children. All of this is recent, i.e., since the close of the Council. But this Pope--who is Supreme Pontiff--has done nothing about it.

What actual traditionalists are NOT in the business of doing is pope-bashing. What pseudo-traditionalists want is their little backsides smooched and a general recognition that they and not JPII are the TRUE DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH!!!!

The Roman Catholic Church is a religion and not a mere museum. The Truth will always be the Truth. The window-dressing may change frrom time to time.

AND we oppose your arguments only occasionally because we have lives to live not obsessions to indulge. When you say that we cannot effectively oppose your arguments, you mean that we cannot convince you. Perhaps not but it is a sure thing that you won't convince us either and you have not Peter whom you deride.

Your arguments are not sound. First, they are based partially on faulty premises: "Our theologies (why the plural?) have been scrapped.", "Our Catholic literature has been scrapped. (Balderdash!)." You claim the Mass has been Protestantized to which they and we would take offense. That you claim that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong does not make it so. Second, your logic may or may not be sound, but in the absence of correct premises: Third, your conclusions are hilarious. Fess up now, the REAL STENCH is that your tastes have been offended and, you are so miserable over the offense given to your tastes that you wish to share your misery whether Catholics wish to share yours or not.

As I have previously posted to you some advice, let me expand on it. If you catechize your own children which is not only your right but your duty, your children's innocence will not be threatened unless you infect them with hatred of our pope and the institution of the papacy. Our faith is intact, sorry about yours! Our Catholic doctrines are intact as they always have been and always will be, sorry about yours! Our tabernacle is where it belongs on the center on top of the altar which our priest faces as his back is turned to us as befits the leader of our congregation as we worship God, sorry about yours! Our priest is celibate. No institution can be celibate since no institution can be otherwise. There are priests elsewhere who have violated their vows of celibacy. Always have been, always will be. We call them sinners. We are sinners too! So was Peter. So was Marcel Lefebvre. This is not news. I don't know what particular ancient customs, rites and pious practices you ae missing but I bet they are to be found at St. Mary's Oratory in Rockford (fully approved by Bishop Doran who has offered the Tridentine Mass there himself). Our priest is holy. Again, individuals and not institutions may be holy or otherwise. If your priest is not holy, I am sorry about that. Our truly Roman Catholic identity is quite intact, thank you, and yours could be too. Move here or to some other location enjoying one of the proliferating Trisentine communities under JPII's indult, leave this holy pontiff alone, stifle your pride and yourself as to the constant and unwarranted and unseemly carping and complaining about JPII.

If your hatred of the pope transcends your love for things Catholic, that is too bad. It does not justify schism or the sin of scandalizing others with your impudent and impertinent and invidious opinions of John Paul II. Every man his own pope is not Catholicism. You can submit to authority and enjoy all of what you claim to want as a Catholic in the pews of many parishes, shrines and oratories, if that is what you REALLY want. It may be inconvenient to your current state of life, but what are a job or a circle of friends or other comfortable old social or economic shoes compared to your salvation which is jeopardized apparently where you are?

Will we be seeing you at St. Mary's in Rockford next Sunday? Mass is at 9:00 AM Central time.

Sit down, darn it and breathe. You generalize WAYYYYYY too much. I say tomato, you say pea soup.

Evolution, in ANY kind of thought, begins with a revolution and people who make waves. St. Thomas Aquinas, Angela Merici, the entire Renaissance...just three examples, but come on, they represented complete changes in the way things were considered and done.

Why must the church not follow the examples of our past and remain so much the same (the conditions that brought on some of these changes and revolutions)? Changing at least keeps things fresh. Otherwise we risk turning the faith into a big museum. The biggest problem is that the threshold for excellence has dropped.

And just out of curiosity - what new beliefs have been invented? And I thought this thread was about changes in the Rosary.

And corruption - have you ever actually read Machiavelli? Corruption exists where power of any any sort is concentrated. It's always been that way and always will be. The temptation is there, it happens. We fight against it, but ultimately, it is a choice of free will.

The seminaries are being pulled out of the morass. It's just going to take time to do it correctly - and I'd rather see it done right than a rush job which will inevitably fall apart. The one in my archdiocese (Kenrick-Glennon) is well on its way, considering who's now in charge and teaching there. Some of the most orthodox men in the archdiocese. There was just recently a change in leadership and Monsignor Delany is now a pastor downtown at St. John the Evangelist.

The more vitriol that appears the more I think you people are crazy.

We are all in the habit of calling the Anglicans, Anglo-Catholics, Episcopalians or whatever they call themselves this week "Protestants" but they are more like schismatics without Apostolic succession (as determined by Pope Leo XIII). They are not reformation types. It may well be that they are utterly confused, having entered the darkness without Rome long before some of our pseudo-Trads who are sooooooo offended by Pope John Paul II.

Let us allow to the reformed at least the dignity of the consistency of their errors as to the Mass. Lutherans do not believe, whatever their service may look like, that they are making the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross immanent upon their table (which is therefore not an altar). Nor do other "reformed" churches believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the Cross is being made immanent upon their tables if they even have tables. The Anglicans or whatever are not Catholics whatever they may pretend. They have no priests because they have no apostolic succession. On the other hand, they are not fully Protestant either. They can imitate Tridentine Masses, if they like, but it won't make them Masses since they have no priests. I stand by my claim.

So your priest and parish is doing as well it can (which can be quite well, like the Toronto Oratory) with second-best.

<> My Parish is thriving and expanding."... second best?<>

But your pastor won't live forever, and presumably he will be transferred at some point to another parish. Your new bishop has only so many priests to work with. What's to prevent him from replacing him with a liberal dud who will undo all his good work

<> Our new Bishop is a youthful, orthodox,Franciscan. I have no doubt our Diocese will thrive and generate sufficient, if not overabundant, vocations.

What will prevent my Bishop from replacing our Pastor with a liberal dud will be the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe this orthodox, highly intelligent and prayerful Bishop is marked-out for higher things. I expect the Holy Spirit has plans for him on a national, if not international, stage and that before he leaves us, Bishop O'Malley will have us in wonderful shape.<>

You make some interesting points. But surely you realize that TAN and Ignatius Press sprang up in response to the scrapping of Catholic literature everywhere. Go to any Catholic college library: the shelves are bare of anything published before Vatican II.

As to the protestantizing of the Mass--it is beyond dispute. The altar is now a table facing the people; the text and rubrics suppress acknowledgement of the Real Presence as well as the sacrificial nature of the Mass. The old sacrificial structure has been eliminated. Instead of the oblation (Offertory), immolation (Consecration) and consummation (Communion), we have a Paschal Meal, exactly as with the Lutheran or Methodist Lord's Supper worship service--despite the fact that this had been precisely condemned by Trent. The condemnation, by the way, explains the liturgical animus against the old Mass and against the Council of Trent itself. In fact, the modern liturgists don't even bother with making the language of the text other than Protestant. Open any text for the Lutheran Lord's Supper and it will correspond in great part to the new Catholic Mass. Protestant hymns have been incorporated by Catholics, Protestant vestments are worn by priests, and the Protestant focus on the assembly is identical.

No, I don't believe John Paul II is a heretic, though he most probably has performed materially heretical acts. But these were not deliberately committed in my estimate: hence he is not in a formally heretical condition. But I will admit that more and more it seems a close call. He is, after all, a smart man, a philosopher. He must realize the scandalous nature of his acts when he prays with rabbis and mullahs and animists and places their beliefs on the same level as our own revelation.

As for my "bellyachin", that's not liable to cease as long as this website is available. It's a way for me to get the message out. Too many Catholics are totally unaware of what's actually happening. They, like you, think everything's fine where they're at, so it must be that way everywhere else. Your I'm-okay-Jack attitude doesn't cut it when other Catholics find their kids in parochial schools are being introduced to texts on sado-masochism and oral sex because some bishop wants to justify his "sexual preference". This is happening in many dioceses all over the country despite parental protests and despite the outrageous scandals. So I'm glad you're fine. But unless somebody like me complains, those problems might be on your own doorstep some day. Then I'm willing to bet you will be as outraged and angry about what's happening as I am.

I left the Indult Mass because it was captive to a false religion which was putting the squeeze on FSSP and the priests of my parish were folding under pressure. I have no qualms of any kind, but am convinced more than ever the SSPX has been the conservator of the Church's tradition--Catholicism's true memory of itself--and hence is blessed by the Holy Spirit and prospers despite adversity.

I am also convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SSPX is not in schism. I believe Rome realizes this as well and has therefore made an effort to regularize relations. I also think it does so out of fear that eventually Catholics will realize the oddity of the Vatican's own fierce opposition to those who affirm nothing other than what the Church has always affirmed and practiced for two thousand years.

But since you keep using the word, you obviously don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about. I don't think there has ever been a single post mentioning me that has not included the term "schism" or "schismatic". So tell me, if I am a schismatic for attending Mass at an SSPX chapel, what does that make the Pope who prays with witchdoctors? --Or doesn't the First Commandment apply to the Pope?

Dear ultima,

Most or all of this has been the fodder of many threads. You are wrong, and it has been established quite clearly that you are wrong. If you wish to re-argue all of these things with yourself again, you may refer to the threads bookmarked on my profile page.

It only feeds your ego to engage you over and over and re-argue what has been argued over and over before. Since you think that your interpretation of Sacred Tradition is superior to that of the Holy Father, it's clear that your ego really needs to go on a diet a lot more than it needs another good feeding.

For those who are in doubt that ultima's assertions are false, please refer to the threads bookmarked on my profile page. They are a start to see the falsity of ultima's new religion, which deceives by making use of many of the trappings of the True Religion.

I will continue to pray for you.

sitetest

They live Catholic lives and raise Catholic families without all the hysteria exhibited in other quarters. If you cannot find such a facility near you, you are welcome here if you can restrain yourself from the pope-bashing which is NOT welcome here. If Rockford is not your cup of tea, there are many other "faith communities" like it in many parts of the country and the number increases regularly.

1. Simply living Catholic lives has been one of the worst casualties of the post-Vatican II revolution. Of course this is what we should all be doing. Do our jobs, raise our families, create souls to populate heaven. No need for every layman to be an amateur theologian. But I'm sure you're aware that raising Catholic children today is like walking through a minefield. And if you only listen to official church sources, it's like walking through that minefield blindfolded.

2. It is simply false to claim that there are MANY communities like yours. Out of the tens of thousands of parishes in the US, there are perhaps half a dozen. Even among the FSSP parishes, only a few are canonically established, meaning the indult could be withdrawn from the others at a moment's notice. Your parish sounds like heaven. But only a tiny fraction of US Catholics have access to a comparable situation. You seem remarkably unfeeling towards the rest.

3. Not only is your community practically unique in the United States, half the dioceses in the US have never implemented the indult at all. A woman who works for The Latin Mass magazine cannot herself attend the Latin Mass because in the well-populated part of California where she lives, the closest Latin Mass is 3 hours away. Are you telling these people to "quit your bellyaching"? Is every Catholic in the US required to move to Rockford, IL?

Lutherans do not believe, whatever their service may look like, that they are making the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross immanent upon their table (which is therefore not an altar).

Msgr. Klaus Gamber in his book "The Reform of the Roman Liturgy" says that the changes made to the Mass to make it into the Novus Ordo were more drastic than those made by Luther or Cranmer.

The Anglicans or whatever are not Catholics whatever they may pretend. They have no priests because they have no apostolic succession.

This was defined by Pope Leo XIII. But so many other teachings of Pope Leo were overturned by Vatican II, why not this one also? If Anglican orders are invalid, then why did Pope John Paul II invite the Archbishop of Canterbury to join him in opening the Holy Door to inaugurate the Jubilee Year? According to Catholic teaching, he's just another English layman, only more deluded than the rest.

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