Posted on 11/06/2002 1:47:26 PM PST by drstevej
Hey, I never said I didn't learn anything from you. :)
I've used historical arguments before, but they didn't agree with you at the time.
BigMack
You may not like it..but it is true..The doctrine you favor Arminism was begun to STOP the reformation cold..Arminism was a Jesuit invention..It is catholism in drag
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
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Once it has been established that all of the events of history have been planned and ordained by God, it is a simple step to understand that this plan includes the destiny of those who shall be saved and those who shall be lost.
At this point, many Christians will object that such a thing just could not be true. After all, doesn
=t the Bible teach that anyone can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved? How could anyone claim that God has chosen certain people to be cast into an eternal death in hell? However valid these questions may seem to be, we cannot hide behind them to ignore the multitude of passages found in the Bible which teach the doctrine of predestination and election. Our first question must not be whether or not I like this teaching, but what does the Bible say?
JESUS TEACHES ELECTION
The sixth chapter of John relates a discourse which Jesus gave at Capernaum by the shore of the Sea of Galilee. He speaks to those who have seen His miracles. There are many who are now listening who had been present when He fed the five thousand (compare John 6:5-11 with John 6:26). They had seen an obvious miracle. They had tasted the bread and eaten the fish which He miraculously produced. And yet, they had not recognized that this One is the Son of God. They have been following Him merely for the sake of benefiting from His miracles. They have seen, but they still have not believed. There has been no commitment on their part. It is in this context that Jesus now introduces His teaching on election.
Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you, that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe." (John 6:35-36).
Jesus begins with the simple declaration that He is the "Bread of life." This is seen in contrast to the bread that He had recently produced to feed the multitude. They sought only to satisfy their physical hunger and thirst. Jesus offers much more. In verse 36, Jesus points out the root of their problem. They have seen the miracles, heard the teachings, but they still have not believed. Why had they not believed? The answer is given in the following verses.
Jesus says that certain people have been given to Him by the Father. All of those who have been given to Him will come to Him. He does not say that all men have been given to Him. This would be universalism and Jesus never taught that. He does say that those which the Father had given to Him would eventually come to Him. This means that there are not any who have been given to Him by the Father who will not come.
Now this is not speaking of some higher level of spirituality. The issue is not the super-spiritual. The issue concerns the converted versus the non-converted. This is speaking of salvation. Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving multitude. Many of them shall not come to Him. Why? From their point of view, it is because they refuse to commit themselves to Him. But there is a deeper, more underlying reason. The deeper reason that they will not come to Him will be because they are not among those whom the Father has given to the Son. On the other hand, those who do come will never be cast out. No man ever need worry that he might come to Jesus and then find that he has not been chosen. All who come to Him in faith will be saved.
At first this seems to be contradictory. On the one hand, those who have been chosen to be given to the Son are the ones who come to Him. On the other hand, anyone who comes to Him will not be cast out. Does this mean that there will be others who come to Him who were not chosen to be given to the Son? Not at all. The truth is that no man will come to the Son unless the Father draws him. This will be pointed out by Jesus in verse 44.
You might be reading this and beginning to seethe. How dare that I suggest that such a thing is so! You are in some interesting company. As Jesus said these things, the Jews who are listening to Him also began to seethe and to grumble. They were ready to believe that Jesus is a miracle-worker. But they could not believe that He is the Son of God who came down from heaven. They will come to Him to eat the food as He feeds the five thousand, but they will not come to Him to receive the bread of life.
Why won=t they come? Jesus answers in verses 43-44. It is because there is a sense in which they are unable to come.
Jesus answered and said to them, ADo not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.@ (John 6:43-44).
Jesus said that the only people who are able to come to Him are those whom the Father draws to Him. Unless a man has been drawn by God, he simply will not come. Why? Why is it that men cannot come to God on their own initiative? Why will they not come unless they are first drawn by God? It is because man is inherently sinful and rebellious against God. Man=s will has been corrupted by sin.
As it is written, AThere is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God.@ (Romans 3:10-11).
It has been said that the man who chokes on the doctrine of election has not yet swallowed the truth of his own depravity. As a sinner, man is totally helpless to turn to God for help. It is God who first turns him toward Himself so that he will even begin to seek a cure. Therefore it is only when a man is drawn by God that he will come to Jesus and be saved.
This is not a new teaching that Jesus was giving to the multitude on that day. It was a teaching that went all the way back to the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Himself quotes from the prophet Isaiah to show that it is God who initiates His work in the hearts of men so that they come to Him.
A
It is written in the prophets, >And they shall all be taught of God.= Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.@ (John 6:45).Jesus is not talking about the entrance of Christians into some higher level of Christian service. He says these things to unbelieving Jews. The implications are obvious. The reason that they have not come to Him in faith is because they have not been drawn by God.
If you are having problems with these sayings of Jesus, then I want you to know that you are not alone. There were many of the disciples of Jesus who also found these teachings to be difficult. The reason that they were difficult was not because of their lack of truth. Rather it was because they had not really believed.
At this point, you might be saying, AAh, I knew that in the end it would be a matter of whether you believe or not!@ Before you get too excited, look at what Jesus said to His disciples.
A
But there are some of you who do not believe.@ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, AFor this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted Him from the Father.@ (John 6:64-65).The words of Jesus could not be clearer. The reason that these pseudo-disciples did not believe was because it had not been granted to them from the Father to believe.
In conclusion we see that salvation is a free gift which is offered to all men. Any man who comes to Jesus Christ in faith shall be saved. No man who places his faith in Christ shall ever find that he has been cast out because he was not one of the elect. However it is also true that none but those who have been chosen and drawn by the Father is able to come to Jesus. It is only when God intervenes in a man=s will and accomplishes His work in a man=s heart that such a man will come and believe in Christ.
I have often heard it argued that Jesus claimed that He would draw all men to Himself - that He draws all men and only those who believe in Him out of their own free will actually come. The passage which is used to prove this teaching is John 12:32 where Jesus says:
A
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.@ (John 12:32).How are we to understand this verse? Does it teach a universal drawing of all men to Christ? If it does, then it teaches too much, since Jesus has already used this very same term to describe the drawing of certain men in John 6:44 and, within that context, He has explained that all who are drawn to Him will be raised up on the last day (John 6:44), will be taught of God (John 6:45), and will certainly not be cast out (John 6:37). Unless you are willing to adopt the doctrine of universalism - that all men everywhere will be saved and that none will ever be condemned - then you cannot take this reference in John 12:32 to describe a universal drawing of the same sense described in chapter 6.
How are we to understand this drawing of Aall men@? Once again, it is the context that explains the passage. When Jesus speaks of Adrawing all men@ to Himself, He does so in a situation in which some Greeks had just been brought to Him. He responds by speaking of His impending crucifixion, the result of which will be to draw all men. Up to this point, the ministry of Jesus had been almost exclusively directed toward the Jews. But this will now change. Once Christ has gone to the cross, He will gather into one body both Jews and Gentiles. There will be no distinction between races or sexes or social strata. He will draw ALL types and races and people.
THE HIDDEN GOSPEL One of the most remarkable prayers of Jesus is the one that He delivered after pronouncing His condemnation upon the Galilean cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum. At that time Jesus answered and said, We dare not divorce what Jesus says in these verses from the previous paragraph. Jesus has just denounced Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum for their unbelief. He has compared their unrepentant state to Sodom, Tyre and Sidon, three of the most infamous cities in Israel Sometimes we get the idea that, when people hear the gospel and do not accept it, God Now I want to ask you a question. What is the deciding factor in whether the gospel is hidden from someone or revealed to that person? Is it his faith? Or is it his willingness to believe? No, it is ultimately the willingness of the Son to reveal the gospel to him. A
The only people who come to know the Father are those whom the Son determines will have the Father revealed to them. It is in this context that the familiar invitation is made for all who are weary and heavy-laden to come and to find rest.
Correct rewrite that this way
God made the first move,Dave can not move toward God untill He moves first.
1Jo 4:19We love him, because he first loved us.
Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Hasn't grace been there from the beginning?
Abraham ?
others?
For all ?
Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
`Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" [Psalm 118:26]
Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua HaMashiach
chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>
Abraham ?
others?
For all ?
The problem with Calvinism is its attempt to reconcile and systematize that which the Bible does not reconcile. Though there is value in systematic theology, there is also a danger. We must be careful simply to believe the Bible as it stands. I believe Acts 13:48, which says "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed," and I also believe Acts 13:46, which says the unbelieving Jews had rejected God's salvation and had judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life. I don't try to develop a theological system that will somehow make perfect sense of it all.
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God’s foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved. The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2 and Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will show the exceeding riches of His grace (Eph. 2:7).
The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures--John 3:15,16, 4:14, 12:46, Acts 2:21, 10:43, Rom. 10:13, Rev. 22:17. The word "whosoever" means all, any, every, the whole. Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord’s words in John 8:24--"for if ye believe not that I am he, ye. shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation.
That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc.’’ I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word "world" is used 77 times in the Gospel of John, I would encourage you to take Strong’s Concordance and look up each utterance, then insert the wards "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is.
You see, if God does not love all men then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I’ll believe John 3:16 as it stands unaltered by the followers of John Calvin.
BigMack
Catholism in drag Mack..
Jesus said: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).
Jesus teaches us several things concerning God's will. First, that God has a certain definite purpose in Christ which determines the final state of all things (predestination). Jesus is not speaking of the law or the moral will of God, but of God's purpose.
Second, Jesus teaches that of all which is given to Him He will lose nothing, that is, God's will (His eternal decree) shall surely be done. God's purpose and will shall stand.
God's will is His sovereign purpose in Jesus Christ, to raise up unto eternal glory at the last day all that is given to Jesus Christ.
Mack Jesus said He was the good shepherd..a few questions...Do the sheep find the Shepherd or does the Shepherd find the lost sheep?
Can Goats ever turn themselves into sheep?
Did God predestine your existance?
Preach on, Brother Mack! :-)
AS
The Shepherd finds the sheep -- the sheep do have a responsiblity to follow the shepherd, however. Sheep move on their own accord and either follow or not.
Can Goats ever turn themselves into sheep?
With God, anything is possible. Can water come from a rock? Can a stick turn into a snake?
SD
What do ya say Dave? Do you and I agree with each other?
Mom this is the funniest thing I've heard you say yet! :)
PS: I liked your cut and paste too.
BigMack
Forever and always united together against the Calvinist menace are we.
That God simply does not desire all to be saved is anathema.
SD
Second, Jesus teaches that of all which is given to Him He will lose nothing, that is, God's will (His eternal decree) shall surely be done. God's purpose and will shall stand.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day [John 6:39].
The term predestination applies only to the saved. It means just exactly what He is saying here. When a person accepts Christ, he is justified; and just as surely as he is justified, he is going to be glorified. When Jesus starts out with one hundred sheep, He’s going to come through with one hundred sheep. He will not lose one.
That is what this means. Everyone who believes and receives Christ, you keep forgetting "the whosoever wills may come to Christ." has everlasting life and will be raised up again at the last day.
BigMack
Look at what Jesus taught Mack....God seeks the lost..they lost NEVER can seek God, they are incapable...
Mack can a goat become a sheep?
.Please note where you went for affirmation of your doctrine..a Catholic..
Arminism was developed to kill the Reformation..you is them Mack..you are natural allies:>)
God called, I heard and accepted, I could of said "No" I have seen many do so after God called them.
Mack can a goat become a sheep?
Not after the goat has become a goat when he rejected the gospel and chose to stay that way.
.Please note where you went for affirmation of your doctrine..a Catholic..
Dave and I agree on very few things, but this is one of them, I see hope for him. :)
Arminism was developed to kill the Reformation..you is them Mack..you are natural allies:>)
The Reformation is not my battle cry, never has been, I'll stick with what the early church did and the Bible.
BigMack
Please, read what I wrote --- I said that God makes the first move.
SD
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